Click here to go to the next issue.

MARCIA, DAN JAN


MARCIA:
I realized that as I momentarily awaken and
I sideways glimpse the 'i' or 'personality' I was
in, there is this desire to shake it and wake it
up. This is a clinging to the notion that the 'i'
or thought is really who I am. In other words
I am still a little identified. I feel/think that this
is a real thing or this 'me' is who I am. I realized
that I can't wake this thing up not because it
sleeps too soundly but because it isn't a thing.
It is just a momentary integration of the thinking,
feeling, and emotional centers or a posture if
you will. It is content and not form.

I think that I am a being having thoughts or feelings
or sensations but it is only the thoughts, feelings,
sensations thinking they are a being. Thoughts,
feelings, sensations can't wake themselves up.
They are not asleep or awake. Just data.
Something else wakes up and becomes aware
of the thoughts, feelings, sensations.


JAN:
From the perspective of energy, one can see that thoughts and
feelings are representing a flow of energy, whereby the major
part of energy is represented by feelings. From this perspective,
well-being/feeling happy means an unhindered flow of energy and
unhappiness results when the flow is interrupted (like lost love,
or being rejected, or having lost a loved one). "Waking up" can
occur when this process is recognized and instead of providing
new channels for the energy (like taking a pet), nothing is done
(surrender). This is why in the N.T. is spoken about the first
death (of the "I") and the second death (of all feelings). This
perspective also ties in neatly with the energy aspect of Kundalini.
Of course "waking up" is an incorrect expression, used for the
sake of argument, because if awakening has a beginning, it must
have an end.


MARCIA:
You and Dan seem to be saying the same thing.
And it has been said before. Maybe I am now ready
to hear it.

I guess the best way to say it is that rather than a
human being which wakes up there is being.
This seems to be what I realized when I wrote
the post. That is that I realized I thought that
these 'i's' could be woken up. Rather I realized
that they couldn't be woken up. There is an
awaking to them. Whatever thinks that it can
wake them up is another one of them.


JAN:
Another perspective is that awakening can be said to
consist of the gradual elimination of (automatic) activities
of the mind, the metaphor being cleaning the surface of
the lake so that the "bottom of gold" can be seen. Then
it will be clear one was awakened all the time and it never
was otherwise. From this perspective one can do away with
(silly?) notions of "I" or not-I as the "mopping up" continues
until the lake is so clean and still that seemingly it is absent.


DAN:

Hi, Marcia.

Resonations.

Thoughts, memories,
reactions simply arise.

They arise "in" That which
is purely Unknown in
terms of thought, memory,
and the body-mind
"field of experience
and reference".

No thought can possibly
"contain" a reference
point to That within which
thought arises. That
simply is not "in"
any content or reference
point constructed
by thought.

There is no entity that wakes up,
as the apparent entity is
a ghost conglomerated from
apparent reference points
as "me".

"Awakeness" is.

The entity isn't there,
has never been.
None of the thought fixations
or reference points ever have
any "ultimate" reality, although
they tend to be treated as
if "real" centers for reality.

It doesn't matter in terms of
Unknownness that personal
accomplishments, kingdoms,
nations, religions, have
risen and fallen. It doesn't
matter that solar systems
have come and gone. The
"petty" concerns of human life
are appropriate to human
thought and action. This is
"natural" and the biocomputer is
"designed" for this. Just as
building an ant hill is
appropriate to the ant.

So, the question "what is
ultimate reality" or
"what is Being" isn't a question
by a human being, to be answered
by a human being (unlike
other questions such as unemployment,
pollution, the historical context
for international conflicts).

This question
*is* at the root of human being, and the
answerless answer is That within
which the entire sphere called
"human being" arises.

Love,
Dan


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MIRRORS, SARAH, MELODY


SARAH:
Some years ago I used to do the mirror meditation a lot and at one
point in a meditation camp I looked into a mirror and saw the eyes of
love looking back at me. Since then I know that I am love, for me
consciousness is love.
Greetings

MARCIA:

Hi Sarah,

Thank you for reminding me about the mirror meditation.
I have spent more than a few hours in a darkened room,
gazing at a mirror with only candlelight to illumine my face.

So many 'faces' begin flashing.....looking back at me.....
I always walked away from that exercise wearing my skin
rather loosely.

I have been told that if one practices it long enough
there will come a time when one simply steps 'thru'
the mirror.

This one is a very effective device, indeed.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GENE, RANDOM NOTES:


NDS

More random notes


Observing: Shame

Talk... of shame. Yes, shame, one of the most difficult topics,
seldom visited. On the Shame of modern Germans; it seems that
post-WW1 German people, were steeped in shame, and A Hitler offered
them a way out of shame, via world conquest and the idea of racial
superiority. Obviously, that did not work, it was a total disaster,
but was it profound shame (read: low self-esteem on a massive scale)
which actually created the opening for a redeemer/strong leader eg
Hitler?
Now that Hitler's fiasco has resulted in even more shame... what
can we expect from those who are ashamed (low/negative self esteem)?
This seems to be a crucial question; will it be up to individuals,
like our new German members, who seem to be working overtime to deal
with this issue, or will it be a mass movement? I cannot pretend to
know. But I speculate that if there is to be a 'new Hitler', he will
not be German, for it does seem to me that the German people have
learned a very deep lesson.

Observing: Advaita Teacher Syndrome

I observe that 'enlightenment' is the natural state of the
human, and I go from there. Following, I say that maturation brings
nondual awareness, that nondual awareness is disruptive only when
experienced 'prematurely', and that 'teachers' who strive to 'awaken'
others, have a captive audience, created by exorbitant claims that
'everyone should be aware nondually'.
I say that it is untrue that 'everyone should... "; I say that
yes, we are heavily biased toward 'duality' via our conditioning as
children, but that contrary to (anxiety producing) expectations to
the contrary, that the view that 'nothing is wrong' is roundly
ignored by those who flap their arms while proclaiming the void of
realization of people around the world. It is apparent from the
spread of age-statistics that the majority of nondual realized ones
are over age 40, centered around age 50. I suggest that we are
looking at a natural process; and there are those attempting to goose
the process along, with certain 'teachers' claiming credit that is
actually due nature.

Observing: Quickening of realization via internet acceleration

It seems to be true, although I have no data to refer to. I
observe that when one has others of like mind to talk to, that
uncertainties tend to evaporate, and that celebration of our
commonality then commences. This is not to suggest that such fora (is
that a word?) are panacea; nor is it an advocacy of leaving behind
living in-person face to face teaching encounters. It is an
observation of just how starved we have been, for communion and
sharing. Thanks, Jerry!

Observing: Religious vs technical nonduality descriptions

I observe that accurate descriptions of nondual realization and
experience are possible outside of classical religious (worship of
God, Divinity, and similar), and that there is a new freedom opening
for this neutral, non-deistic way of describing.

Observing: Emotion VS sentiment

Those with the most to lose upon realization, cling to
sentimental versions of life experience, while those with little or
nothing to lose, brashly proclaim their relief at losing it, and
state with various degrees of passion, the transformations and trauma
which have (seem to have) been instrumental in their awakening.


More later...

==Gene Poole==

~~~~~~~~~~

POU:
I notice in a post today of Gene's where he is speaking in his terms of
shame.

He mentions here of shame of the German people. Again, the depth,
the non-communicated, the unknown, the secrets, as these matters
slowly bubble up into conscious awareness.

<snip>

Shame at a personal level can only be integrated to the degree that
the individual is capable of feeling and to the degree that one is
able to feel is to the same degree one is able to integrate shame.

We can see at the collective level should it be German, American,
English, Australian, Spanish, whatever. Where great degrees of
shaming have taken place that we're still very immature collectively
in even attempting to let along spell the word shame.

We seem to be so happy to project our shadow onto the other. It's
convenient for us to speak of the shame of the German psyche, so
convenient.


GENE:
Dear Pou, I truly enjoy what you bring to this forum. I need the
depth of your insight.

I sincerely hope that my words, referred to by you above, were not
somehow inappropriate.

I refer to 'the German people' in my letter, as you say. But I am
very aware that no person living today is in any way responsible for
the acts or intentions of Hitler. I feel that I am addressing
something real (and what I am addressing is the difference between
personal and cultural/societal/collective guilt), it is real in that
when it is spoken of or not spoken of, there is an effect which is
felt in the body.

If something is 'sticking around', bothering one on the level of
feelings, it is there for a reason. It should probably be addressed;
there is usually a good outcome to such examinations.

On the other hand, we cannot undo the past, which is the past, gone,
over with, except for memory.
I see a need to refresh our memories when it comes to facing huge
errors, so that such errors are not committed any more. I am capable
of learning by the mistakes of others.

I myself have boiled in a deep fryer of guilt, until I knew its taste
intimately. That experience is one of the 'reasons' why I recognize
the need to free myself of the past, not through denial, but through
understanding and reconciliation.

Thanks again for being here and contributing as you do.

Much love,

==Gene Poole==


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
POU STORY:


POU:

Dear Harsha

Kia ara Koro..... greetings respected elder Harsha

Kia Ora means... strong health.. recognition... meeting..

What I communicate to you today is my... Nga.. ko re ro.. my message to
you... the heart.

Tena koutou katou.. means.. greetings to all.. but Harsha it is greetings
in recognition... I am here with you.. really here with you and delighted
to be..

I'll do my best to offer the meaning of this greeting.

This greeting arises from my blood.I have Maori blood which I carry proudly.

The Maori language is a very oral expression. The whole of the Maori
mythology of culture and love was never written, it has always been passed
from father to son and from mother to daughter and so on in an oral
tradition.

It is a very living language, vibrant, alive. For example it doesn't say "I
am with the mountain", it refers to when I am with the mountain.... I am the
mountain".

Literally translated, the meaning of my greeting, it is greeting to you, it
is greeting to your family... and it includes all. It reminds us behind our
exterior form, we are one.

My birthplace is Aotearoa. I carry the Maori blood within my body therefore
when I greet you I include my family in the greeting to you and to your
family.

Beloved Harsha, Kia Ora.. we have the instantaneous recognition naturally
because of our unspoken love and understanding of Shri Ramana and we may
well have Ramana's photo up all over our home and a book case full of his
written words .... and have from what I understand awoken to the beauty of
the Self throu the grace of the Sat Guru Ramana

Naturally and healthily as well we / I may also have our differences of
opinion(s) regarding beliefs, concepts, still the heart is one.

Kia ka ha.... stay strong ,clear ,healthy with your purpose

Aroha love always

Pou



HARCHA:
Dear Pou

Thank you for explaining that beautiful greeting. I like it very much now
that I know the meaning. It is also nice to know about your Maori
background. Could you please tell more. I don't know much about the Maori
people and where they originate.

Here is what the greeting "Tea Chai Spicy Chai Good Chai Tea" signifies.

The story is that when Boddhidharma went to China, it is said that he
meditated by staring at a wall. He would occasionally doze off and this
really irritated him. So he plucked out his eye lashes and threw them on the
ground. From that spot on the earth grew an incredible plant. The leaves of
that plant had the property of keeping people awake. That is considered the
origin of Tea in China.

Chai is spicy Tea which is drank in India. It is simply Tea with certain
spices in it. Tea is revered as a spiritual instrument in subtle ways. In
Japan, they have the Tea ceremony.

Tea can have both dedicative and meditative effects on the vital principle
of the body.

Tea also helps to warm up the body for yoga postures and is an important
dietary component of an ancient system of integrative, differntiative,
transcendental, and super transcendental yogic and tantric traditions.

When the practitioners of this ancient system meet they recognize each other
with their affinity for Tea and say "Tea Chai Chai Spicy Chai Tea".

This greeting actually has many versions and variations on which I will
comment later at a suitable point.

Lots of love
Harsha


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
POU AND MASTERS


POU:
In the circus.. first it was primal.. everyone was a primal therapist
after a 2 week training, then bodywork of one sort or another,
again two or three week training, then came channeling...oh channelling whow
man....
again a weekend course, then came Reki, whom amn feel the nergy.... then
this... then that... all 2 or three weekend long trainings.. farout out
man...whow... lets do it... and now... it's.. wait for it............
satsang...... yeh.. it would appear that most of these dudes have no
training in offering such a serious sport..what will be next in
offering?



MELODY:
LOL! Thanks for a great laugh, Pou.

I sure see myself in what you say above....having gone thru
that phase myself - where I just couldn't wait to go out and
'teach' what I had just learned the day before.

This seems to be a rather universal impulse among
western seekers. I wonder if it's because of our
imprinting by Christianity.....and the Church's mission
of turning those they "save" on Sunday

into "fishers of men" by Monday.


POU:

On a note of seriousness, if I may be sincere here. It would appear today
that the state of awakening in western consciousness is upon us.

There have been many reported seeing of visions of this universla awakening
that has taken place today. I won't go into that one here. Rajneesh firmly
believed for one, that he was working with his people to create the new man.

In his books 'In search of the Mircaulous" he speaks about the period after
awakening. He goes on to say and this is not verbatim due to copyright law
and having said that it is too my personal understanding that if you think
the work before awakening is difficult then the work after awakening what
the Zen people call "cultivating awareness after enlightenment" will be ten
times more difficult.

He goes on to explain the reason why it is so difficult because one has to
get past the 'i' now that is experiencing the new state of enlightenment.

For thousands of years in the East, a person was never allowed to offer
Satsang unless instructed by their qualified master. To become a qualified
master has been and still is today in real circles, real schools of
enlightenment, an extremely ardupous task. For newly enligthened ego can't
wait to give Satsang. You only have to visit Jerry Katz's website to
witness this phenemonan.

My own personal understanding of the awakened state and I speak personal
here, not of others, is that the body and the mind need a long period of
integration. I have witnessed in my own self over the years and with others
close to me. Yes, the state of enlightenment or the non-state is presen,
aware of its own self but to not inclujde the psyche, to deny the psyche now
is a sign of very immature cultivation of present attention.

Still, like in all things in life people need to live in the state of
denial. Lifetimes even. Being stuck in the enlightened staet.

In the East they know that newly awakened disciple, first ten to twenty
years needs time to settle in. All these idiots today and unqualified at
that, repititiously quote "For whom?"

Melody, Zen sticks were invented for enlightened disciples who can't wait to
give Satsang and talk about truth before they are mature.



DAN:
Thanks for your comments, Pau.(Pou)

And I hear your concerns
that unintegrated expressions
of "truth" may reflect and project
splitness, rather than unsplit truth.

Yet, I ask:
Who qualified Jesus; who
hit Gautama with a stick?

Only Reality was their guide.

Jesus just stood up and spoke,
didn't worry about jeers
from the sideline about his
lack of qualifications
(and it's always those who
self-proclaim as being
"qualified" that offer
such jeers).

He simply felt called to share Reality.

From here, it's not a matter of qualifications,
but of quality. Does the expression "work",
is it truly "useful"? That seems the key.

It's not the stamp of approval, nor is it
the amount of time (although yes, it
does indeed take time to settle
and "integrate" for "appropriate
expression in the world").

It's simply the quality, the depth, the
resonation that "makes a difference".

Jesus's words resonate here,
to "call not the
other 'fool'";
pull the beam from
one's own eye
before focusing
intent and attention
on the splinter
seen in
one's neighbor's eye.

Is not Reality the ultimate stick that
strikes the ignore-ant (as well as
"the wise") ?

And is not this stick aimed
at all of us equally?

Have you noticed that when
the word "idiot" is used,
that typically it is aimed
at the "idiot" out there?

What of the "idiot" in here??

Ready for my whack,
just another idiot,


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
POU:
SINGING

Greetings All

Tena koutou katou

(Greetings to you and your family)

There was an exquisite programme on English television last night about a
man who practised Hassidic Judaism and at the same time he professed to be
a hippie - a really gorgeous guy, who has decided to live with his family
from I understood to be on Israeli occupied land surrounded by a city of
Palestinian people.

At one point he gave his own personal opinion that one of the reasons
people "hate" .. his own word.. Jews, is that Jews (generlisation) remind
us of our lack of living celebrating religiousness. The lack of an alive,
spontaneous, religious life.

I can really resonate with what he was speaking about within my own person,
living at present in a society where expression of spontaneous outburst of
praise in the Lord name... is for most.. uncouth and certainly unbecoming
behaviour. The looks I receive from walking barefoot in the park.. of all
places ..is amazing.

It is not the done thing to walk barefoot here where I live..

I've never been to Israel or any of the recognised Holy lands so I clearly
cannot comment about any situation there. Even if I was to visit.. I would
see from the perceptive of my own conditioning and my belief filters.

Watching this video clip and watching this beautiful man as the story
followed his day to day life, what touched me so deeply is that he was able
to get up in the morning and in the open air sing to God. Of course, his
God, our God, GOD.. with such openness, a celebration of love..

Here where I am at present .. if I tried this one on tomorrow morning. ..
it may possibility not go down to well if you know what I mean...

This man has the full blessing of the community is allowed has full
permission to express his religiousness.. his celebration.. in public at
anytime and yes he also has an army to protect his rights...

He can wear the clothes that he wants and however ridiculous they may or
mayn¼t appear to the outside world, he has this expression of religious
freedom to sing , dance, speak, praise God, to praise the Beloved, to dance,
sing, speak, to be with others in this way, to live it day by day, moment by
moment.

And what is even more fascinating is the more he does this from the
expression of this heart and mind the more his friends and family support
this expression of living..whow...

I honestly believe that that deep in all our hearts, no we all may not wish
to, nor do we wish to want to live in a commune or do something
religious trip or experimentation separate in a closed community... that
end up in war with the so called outside world playing.. the.. we are
right.. you are wrong game.... I feel and believe deep in our hearts we/I
want to live in a world today not in the distant future, where we can walk
down the streets with family and friends and teach our children (teach is
probably not the right word here because it does have the connotation
perhaps to manipulate in order to control) and praise God by singing or
dancing with respect to others, but when and where we feel like it.

A little while ago on the Underground in London at peak hour and the train
packed like sardines, a man who looked like an Hassidic Jew started singing
his head off but because it was in Hebrew I didn't understand the words but
it felt like he was singing to his Beloved God. Such joy. Such spontaneous
uncalled for outbursts.

It is my own personal belief system after having worked for many years in
the field of shame and addiction and certain aspects of neurosis that unless
we sing and dance everyday and praise God, and have the ability to praise
God when and where the feeling arises for us in our unique individual way,
that fear and separation, righteousness will be the expression of the day.

I know this is an incredibly sensitive issue especially if there is any
Palestinian people at NDS, it is not that I speak this way of Judaism in any
way to be insensitive to the Palestinian situation at present in the holy
land. It is just my uneducated ignorance that I do not know about
Palestinian people; their culture, their love and their way of celebrating
God. I sure am open to learn...


DAN:
Hi Pau-ji,

Is not the bird on that tree
over there singing the infinite Name?

Does not the thunderstorm
resonate with that Name?

Is the earthquake not shaking
the ground with that Name?

Most certainly, there is no
particular "Jewish" nor "Palestinian"
claim to the Name in which
all are born equally ...

However one hears it,
one hears only of one's
Being...

Whether it is heard from
a Hasidic Jew, a Sufi
dervish, or the sound
of the janitor's broom
sweeping the hall...

It is simply ...

'what is'


HANS:
Dear Pou,
I loved to read this one.
What is this passion for the Self if one cannot express it!
I start singing in the office, in my car, on the street.
Still very careful and silent.
And strange: one man joined in singing passing me by.
That is shared love, I believe.



Dear Pou,

This mail got me.

I think it is the longing in everybody (for sure in myself) to praise
god every second and in every expression which needs to be expressed.

On Friday I had lunch in a canteen where mainly civil servants use to
eat. One of these men sat down next to me and before starting to eat
I saw him doing his prayer. He did it very inconspicuous. I hadn't
seen somebody praying in public for a long time and I realized that
it is such an unusual act - I felt touched and embarrassed at the
same time. Then he saw that I had watched the action and he just
looked at me very quiet. I felt such a dignity and love in his eyes.
Now I realize that there is much shame connected with expressing
gratitude to god and being seen in these actions. At the same time I
experienced that in praying dignity and love arises. It is such an
intimate action and very fragile. That's why this man touched me. I
felt like having received a precious gift.

Love
Manu

MORE RESPONSE TO MAZU:


> The teachings of non-duality are profound indeed, with the
> potential to awaken. Yet, it has appeared to me from experience and
> in speaking with others, that these teachings are often used as a way
> to hide. Non-dual concepts are concepts none the less and the once
> profound concept has been turned into rhetoric by many. When
> speaking with one interested in non-duality it is most important to
> get the jargon down. Personal pronouns are most harmful, and of
> course there is "no effort","no doing", "no birth..no death". Most
> importantly your "search is over" and if really pressed with a
> difficult question just ask "Who wants to know?" But has one
> realized this...most often NO. If you are asking "Well, who is there
> to realize anything?", you are definately a hider. There is also the
> more subtle who you will most likely find giving a retreat or satsang
> in an area close to you, who are attached to consciousness. They
> hold to this "beingness" which is wholely due to the vital principle
> for dear life. It wasn't present before or after birth.
> Unfourtunately, they get students to rest(attached) in this vital
> principle and "not do anything.. no one to do it." Then there are
> geniune teachers who for some reason trap themselves in the language
> of non-duality. They say "You are free from the beginning", then the
> student says "I am Free!" Now we have another retreat coming to an
> area close to you. The whole point is you have to hold sincerity and
> answer to death(forget no birth..not death). I'm sorry to upset all
> those resting in their beingness..doing nothing. And those false
> teachers who look sincerely might have to get a new job.
> Mazu



ROSE:
I like your letter. There must be a next step (and maybe I am
dreaming, I dont care - but since we are all dreaming!)- I was hiding
in bliss for quite a while myself - maybe the time has come where
enlightenment or the state of nonduality (since the mind grasps
everything too quick and who knows in identification that he/she
-sorry!- is identified and dont tell me in non duality is no mind)is
collectively bored of itself (I hope). What about life and creation?
And responsibility? Or shall we just "accept" everything as it is?
What about the "doing" out of the "non doing"???


DAN:
Dear Rose,

The "conceptual mind"
has many means at its
disposal to continue
the closed system
of concepts as if
reality were based
there.

It isn't.

Concepts like
"What will I do next?"
"What about this important
issue, and that important
concern" ...

Awareness is always only
"here".
There is no where for awareness
to go that isn't awareness.

As concept arises, any tendency
to identify "within" the
concept "empties" before
it can "anchor" anywhere.

If so, there is nowhere to call
"home".

There is no "next moment" and
no one who is going
into a "next moment" with
an agenda for "how to
take care of business".

Above are simply several concepts
that arose as your posting
was read.

If these concepts aren't useful,
please discard.

Love,
Dan


SAMMY:
Dear NondualitySalon

Dear Mazu

I'm new to the NondualitySalon. For a few days I've been reading your
letters and being touched and inspired, and feeling a bit daunted too.

I'm not awake, or so I believe, but as one who has attended many Satsangs of
the "Who's asking the question?" school, what you wrote Mazu really
resonates with me. I sat all quiet and empty (nothing to do) with tears
rolling but having heard the same approach for hours on end I was left
with...
Yes, and now what?
There must be a next step; there's this looking for one.


MAZU:
Dear Sammy,
Once we were burdened by the concepts of duality, and then we hear the
concepts of non-duality and it feels like we've drop a weight. But the
concepts of non-duality soon become a weight of there own. I assume the if
you've asked the "now what?" question in a satsang you were asked "well, who
is there to do anything?" Great, thanks! There is the possibility to go
beyond these concepts, and in so doing be free to make a couragous, bold,
effort without giving a rats ass wheather it is a effort or not. The truth
is the truth and is none the less or more due to any concept. If you are
like me, just the idea of frankly "not having time" for these conceptual
deliberations can be truely freeing and you will have the vitality that
you've been supressing while trying to live up to a non-dual concept. I am
going to India and will make my Last Stand, willing to die if need be. That
is why, for the first time I am speaking about these matters. Make a
stand...fuck the bullshit and the pandits. It's between you and death, it
must be pragmatic and urgent or it's play. Write soon. All of my Love.
Mazu


TAMARA:
dear george,
from an impersonal viewpoint it is clear

but there is also synchronically the personal dimension...

when your partner leaves you with another woman
your child dies in an accident
or your beloved suffers of cancer etc.

it did not empower me to ask "for whom is this happening for"
my experience is and what I have to learn through feeling....

compassion.

greetings Tamara


CLARISSA:
Sometimes the seeker coming to some "enlightened" individual is
hiding his non-agreement with what
the "enlightened" one says or does. Is hiding his own intelligence
and his own opinions, considering that the "enlightened" one
is "further" than himself. Cause who would be satisfied with an
answer to a question like "How come the world is such a mass, if God
is everything? - "There is no I, so who is asking the question in the
first place?" - "It is all Samsara". Great answers, thank you.
And the "enlightened" one is hiding, cause he has actually no answer
to this kind of questions.

Love, Clarissa


DAN:
Dear Clarissa,

The provision of an "answer"
is like giving a child
a rattle to play with
so the child will feel
reassured.

Love,
Dan


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BIRGIT, DAN

BIRGIT:
Dear Dan,

thank you for your poetic words about the essence.

For a long time I thought non-doing is the answer, very easy - I
just "do" it´- had good times, had bad times with it. India is a
good
ground for pracitising.
Then back to the West - the whole lot of frentic acting started
again - just being like anybody else around....the same as in India!!!

Now: There is lots to do and lots to undo - still, the gold is known
and the fear standing next to it: what to do if nothing comes? - or:
The unknown wants to walk in, may be I'm busy or may be elsewhere
dreaming, forgetting that God is knocking and wants some tea?

I found out that "God wants to have tea not with sugar but with fun"
and me, too!! He doesn't care what I do, if I simply do with love.


DAN:
Hi Birgit,

Nice to hear from you
on "this".

Yes, the Unknown knocks
immediately.
Who can say who is knocking?
I hesitate to say "God" or
"Consciousness" just
because so many images
and ideas have been generated
about "God" and "Consciousness".
Who is knocking certainly isn't
an idea, and certainly isn't
anything found in "the past"
or "a teaching".

And if there is anyone home,
Unknown Being won't "come in".
However, if emptiness is,
Unknown Being already is "here".
The "knocking" transforms into
"presence" of resonating awareness.

As there is no "wall" of thought,
concepts, emotional reactions
separating an inside from an
outside, only "universal presence"
is.

Thanks for sharing what you found out.

One might say, "only
'being': no one to find and
nothing to be found.

And 'being' lifts this cup of
tea, and is the cup, and
is the toast to you, who
are only 'this being'.

Blessed be,
Dan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GENE, DAN:

NDS

Reply to Dan/Entropy

Hi Dan, you replied to my letter about 'entropy'. Sorry for the delay
in responding, I have gotten a little buried in other work, and
forgot. (Whew! lots of posts lately!)

DAN:
Nice piece, Gene.

Beautifully stated.

The 'action' that forms
the Matrix is all-at-once,
so much so that all-at-once
is too partialized a description.

GENE:
This could be said, yes. The 'action' of Primordial Mind seems to be
living and unchanging intention; thus all manifestations 'produced'
are the direct product of that intention. If this is seen, one may
look 'upstream' and by knowing the nature of what has been produced,
intuit the producer.

We are the fruits of the action of Primordial Mind, as is everything.
We need only (IMO) recognize the economy of form and the unity of
function of 'everything', to appreciate the intention of Primordial
Mind. If this is done, as an experiment, much fear and ambiguity may
be removed.

This is to state that the intention of Primordial Mind seems to be,
to reproduce itself. It 'wants' to do this through the creation of
biological hosts for itself. Each host must go through processes of
becoming; at a certain point of maturation of a biological host, the
illusion of individual selfhood vanishes (at least for a pregnant
moment) and the raw power and knowing of the intention of Primordial
Mind flashes into place, in the very space which was inhabited by the
long-suffering 'me'-construct.

This event, should it occur, evidences the impersonal nature of
Primordial Mind; yet, it is Primordial Mind which sets into play,
conditions which incubate the 'me'-construct, only to displace it, at
that certain phase of maturity.

It is not too surprising that humans have attached vast superstitious
significance to this function (enlightenment) of human design; humans
attach vast significances to many things. The entire issue of
'enlightenment' could be very much simplified, if it could be
understood that it is 'inevitable', a phase of maturation, rather
than the product of 'doing'. This clearer understanding could take
the place of all of the putative 'ways'.

But we still need 'ways'; and it is significant that so many ways
point to the same change of phase in perception. I see the need for
dissemination of understandable advisories among the human
population, which would outline what can be expected, universally, by
humans. A chart with a general timeline, descriptions of 'changes' as
they typically occur, could act as a means of discharging both
superstitious attraction and dread, and allow people to make
preparations for transition from phase to phase.

This would of course be interpreted as an assault upon 'organized
religion', and could spell the end of the control of culture by
religion. We have already seen that one clear person can shake the
religious establishments of the world, and even overturn them.

DAN:
Because the Matrix defines time,
perception, and point of view,
for a creature in the Matrix,
the 'action' of 'forming'
is entirely imperceptible,
timeless, immeasurable,
unspeakable, and *not*.

What *is*, thus *is not*
(from point of view within
Matrix) and what is taken to "be"
(i.e. the experiential
point of view within
the Matrix) *is not*
("really").

Primordially Minded
until the very End,


GENE:
You seem to understand the logic of the illogic of 'normal'
perception; I am trying to put together a 'workaround' for that
boggle of thought.

In a high-level philosophy course which I attended, the instructor
suggested that a person is incapable of seeing what they had never
seen before. At the time, I thought he was either mistaken, or just
trying to jog his students into thinking-mode. I see now, that he was
right. This is especially true, if such a seeing (of what was never
seen before) would entail seeing something which would prove
conclusively, that everything previously seen, had been entirely
misinterpreted. This sort of event of seeing is feared and shunned,
but the proponents of 'enlightenment' have stated a dare to everyone
at large, and have worked very hard to make that shattering (yet
liberating) seeing a worthy goal to attain.

Unfortunately, by making a goal of what is natural, a lot of 'doing'
is prescribed which has come to be seen as necessary to the
'attainment' of that seeing. It is as though people have been tricked
into believing that there is a 'technique' for breathing, when in
fact breath is a gift, as is 'enlightenment'. It is the very
intricacy of the advocacy of enlightenment, which has become a major
barrier to the 'attainment' which is advocated. It is no wonder that
'seeking the sacred' has ramified into a veritable Tower of Babel,
and is seen as unapproachable by so many.

Worse is the equating of 'enlightenment' with 'being good'. We have
seen historically, and perhaps even personally, that 'enlightenment'
is in itself, not a guarantee of 'goodness'. What many have failed to
understand though, is that 'being good' is itself, not a key to
'becoming enlightened'. 'Being good' (obeying scriptural or other
precepts) is not a criterion of enlightenment, just as always
speaking in a way that is grammatically correct, does not guarantee
that what is spoken is wisdom.

It is time to dissolve the assumptions as to 'what is enlightenment';
it is time to liberate the concepts, as well as the people. Hidebound
traditionalists continue to enforce conditions and criteria, using
moral precepts to instill fear and ambition into the population. If
one can understand that there are no conditions or criteria, one is
also liberated from the bondage of belief and path.

We as living vulnerable creatures have sensitivities which act as
sense-boundaries, which in themselves define our ethics and thus laws
derived from ethics, but we have institutionalized our sensitivities
into codified laws, and have put those laws into authority over
ourselves. For ages, this has been the case with the religious
framing of the experience of 'becoming enlightened'. Prophets and
sages who claim communion with God are given authority; thus, those
desiring authority often try to convince us of their own moral
superiority, so we will put them in authority over us. The historical
replay of this predictable scenario is now being discussed in the
ongoing 'Hitler' threads. I am happy to see this, and to hope that a
linkage of thought can be made between the advent of unreasonable
authority, and the traditionally enforced (putative) criteria of
enlightenment.

There 'is' an existing yet unseen 'technology' which is able to use
the very power of entropy to reproduce from 'nothing', entire
Universes, thus to escape entropy. Our human situation hovers
somewhere between the realization of that 'technology' and utter
extinction. Drawing upon our own nature, we are able to see though
the welter of beliefs which obscure a clearer vision of our nature.
If we see deeply enough into our nature, we will see that we have
access to the power of creation itself.


==Gene Poole==

DAN:
Gene-ji -- a dream Genie,

Namaste.
Thank you for your response.

Resonating with your perceptions
and clarity.

The biological computer may
end the "me-entity" as
artificial reference point.

The computer will then do what it does.

This biological unit is simply
performing its assigned tasks.

"What is alive" is this edgeless
universe. Uncreated, nonreplicating,
all that is. A biological unit
functioning as soil for Unknown birth,
for/as Uncreated Acausal that doesn't
depend on any biological unit. Playing
its puppets -- yet the violin string
*is* the concert that is played!

Every biological unit is allowed/must be
temporary universe. How poetic!

The biological unit will end,
and its tasks will have been
performed.

The living universe, beginningless,
edgeless...

Now that's a horse of
a different color,
as Dorothy was told.

Nonreplicable uncreated,
expressing this instant
as "uniqueness", yet replicating
infinitely in endless
creativity and universes,



DAN:
This edgeless universe is
performing a dance.
The dance is to be held
in your living room.
A request is made
for your full
response.

:~)

Love,
Ed Geless


JAN:
I enjoyed the communication but certainly won't provoke - with a mind
becoming as transparent to stimuli as the air is to light, responses will
become rare or "on request" only :)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
TIM JANE:

I went for a walk today, has anyone seen I walking? sorry.I went for a
walk to let all imformation ive recieved lately to integrate and i came
across a dead rabbit on my path. The following is what came to mind as a
result of this encounter.

Bodies are 60, 70, 80, 90 year leases, if you are lucky, or unlucky,
depending on ones viewpoint.

One day, always today, recognition may dawn that oneself is not only the
tenant,( physical existance as a body) - but both the tenant and the
landlord,ie (source)

The landlords house is meaningless, from the tenants point of view,
without the tenant in it, experiencing its dimensions, and the tenants
existence without the recognition of the landlord, could be seen as constant
action with very little meaning or significance, or overview,or essential
peace abiding rest, or stillness..

But what a dance, and what a glory, to allow full willingness to live in
the
house, and experience its dimensions, knowing that all the time, one is the
landlord.

Far out, wicked, cool.
P.S. I honour and thank the bunnys discourse today- The teaching
Tim J. aka cornishlegend.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
CLEARING UP THE QUESTION?

I thought your question was about people like yourself and me, not about
enlightened ones

NOBODY:
seems you know something about the difference about
yourself, me and the enlightened ones, do you know??

please will you share your insights with

NOBODY:
most satsang-teachers find visitors
right in time in tune with existence
how else to treat a buisiness than as buisiness?

what people ask for
has to be sold.

Sarlo here on the list has a system (LOL)
to judge teachers like you, me and everybody

every step to freedom is done out of
deeper frustration and dependency.


DAN:
The difference between myself, you, and the
enlightened ones is that I'm the one
who is suffering here ;-)


DAN:
Rent has to be paid,
the fuel pump won't work
because I tell it I'm enlightened,
the electric company
won't accept a
quote from Ramana
as payment.

Money and business aren't
problematic in and of
themselves.

It's the identification
with money as a "show"
of my worth, and
the preoccupation
with status that
turn money and
business into
problematic situations.

JUTTA:
Dear Dan,

yes, "I " am the one who is suffering here! This "I" is always and
the only one who is suffering here.

And at the same time this "I" is needed (this is what "I" believe) to
function in the world of maya, in the world of duality.

I started the spiritual search in order to leave the world
of suffering and found

"only being - no one to find and nothing to be found"
as you once stated here in NDS. (What I love by the way very much!)

So refered to the ZEN story of the nine bulls: the bull was back
and "I" wanted to celebrate it in the pub in the village. For this
the "I" is needed. So what now?

Knowing that there is no "I" gives the freedom to experience the "I"
in a mature way, in a responsible way. Just with the "I", the power
of experiencing limmited creations, the step from the nines bull to
the tenth bull is possible and with it the chance to live compassion
and beauty and integrity.

A deep friend of mine once said something like: the openess where
pain enters is the same where bliss enters. So this helps to
appreciate and feel all limitation "I" create.

The other way, I found out for me is, to share this with other "I"
and to remember the together that there is only being and to put the
intelligence together and make this here and now a place to celebrate.

I love your poems!!

love Jutta

P.S.
I am Jutta-Helga-Martha, the wife from Piet (I use "his" adress to
respond... my email-adress right now is not working)


DAN:
Dear Jutta,

Thank you!

You said well to-the-point:
"the openness where pain enters is
the same where bliss enters."

I heartily agree, and that "openness"
is only our "real being" itself.

In the Hebrew scripture it is said,
"I will take away your heart of stone
and give you a heart of flesh."

There is no being beyond "all this".
"All this" is Being.

That "I" celebrating at
the pub, was it "your I",
or was it "just I"?

Who is this "I" that is
never absent from anything
that happens?

That which seems shared with "another I"
is never shared with "another I".

"I" is "I".

Thanks for sharing!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RALF:
The razor’s edge


Often I ask myself if I am doing right or if I am doing wrong.
I think everybody knows this.

In this process I see the two sides offered by the mind. For
example: someone is part of a spiritual group, and something
is required from him, with which he is not feeling at ease.
Either it is resistance, coming from his neurotic past. In this
case the teaching is to surrender. Or it is some inner truth,
for which he has to stand up and open his mouth. In this case
he has to go for his individual freedom.

Sheep or lion? What is the teaching?

Until today I didn’t find an answer, and I suspect, there is no
answer. Maybe it is not even a problem at all. Because it is not
possible to go beyond duality.

And because of this there is no truth in the sense, that a guiding
inner voice exists. It is spiritual bullshit to believe that something
is coming out of nothing. In this situation, progress can only be
made to the degree to which we are conscious and free to decide what
we want to believe, which means: what we want to experience.


I have another belief. It is a total contrast to what I wrote before.

Sometimes I simply know the truth, as if something from the beyond
is guiding me. I act, and that’s it. No regret. Everybody knows this.


Contradiction.


How do these viewpoints come together?

I go on the razor’s edge. The razor’s edge is the fine line between
both sides of duality, and going on it, I find the balance.

To find the balance I have to fall from the edge, in order to experience
duality fully. It hurts. I hear the feedback, and I tell you, it is
not nice sometimes. I climb back.

When balance comes finally, I hear the voice. It is not god’s voice.
It is not a voice at all. I cannot find a description, but I stand
on the razor’s edge, and that‘s what is required from me.


In the beginning of my spiritual journey I believed enlightenment was
some sort of paradise without suffering, to be achieved after long and
hard work. Several years later I believed enlightenment was an under-
standing. But that changed, too. According to my current belief I see
enlightenment as an acknowledgement. An acknowledgement that I hear the
voice. Even me, after all the self-denial and all the pain.

That doesn’t mean that falling down has stopped. There is much work do
to. And it hurts more.


Lucky is the world of duality. Imagine a world of triality. There would
be no razor’s edge.

I am especially happy about duality, when I see chicken. Somehow my fate
seems to be connected to them. Maybe you have read my mail some days
before. Watching chicken I can have spiritual experiences, but sometimes
I feel hungry, and that is not at all spiritual or loving, at least not
from the viewpoint of the chicken. In this case duality appears in form
of a full stomach.

GEORGE RODES:

I was wondering if there are any members of the group who have an
interest in the aphorisms of Franklin Merrell-Wolff and would like to
discuss them in some detail. For example, aphorism #6 says:

"Within the bosom of Consciousness-without-an-object lies the power
of awareness that projects objects."

and #7 says:

"When objects are projected the power of awareness as subject is
presupposed. Yet Consciousness-without-an-object remains unchanged."

I feel that I have a rough idea of what he is saying in these two
aphorisms, but would like to discuss them, and the other 54
aphorisms, with those who have spent some time contemplating them.

E-mail me directly at mindworks3@altavista.com

Thanks,

George Rodes

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
HANS, SARLO:


SARLO:
This of course does not give you license to be "helping" the
masses, as if you are the messiah,

I am very glad, that Jesus, Osho, Ramana had a very different view-
point on that issue. Jesus deliberately took the role of the messiah,
Osho took every role that was needed to create situations for his
disciples to wake up. The danger comes in, when I get stuck on belief,
where I believe, I am right.

I believe the awakened state is not only the license but the duty to
share with the masses.

I thought your question was about people like yourself and me, not about
enlightened ones. All the rules are off with them, but that includes
"duty" too. I believe that Osho says there are ten arhatas, or eo's that
don't share with the masses, for every one that does. Now even these guys
will share in their own way, quietly, but it will not be in the "larger"
way that those who take on the master/guru role do.

HANS:
We come closer to the point where it gets really juicy for me.
1. Show me where the "I" lives. I haven't found that place yet.

SARLO:
Ah well, me neither, but failure to find it so far doesn't mean forever.
This does not constitute proof. I am told variously that it doesn't exist,
it is an illusion, it is a locking-up of my divine energy, etc.
Meanwhile...

HANS:
2. What is your definition of enlightenment? How does it look like?
Do you believe, Jesus or Osho in their early days were not as
incomplete as we are right now? I think it is a process to mature in
the awakened state.

SARLO:
Obviously i am not in a position to make rigourous definitions of
enlightenment. About Jesus, Osho, Ramana and the rest, depends what you
mean by early days. Before enlightenment, incomplete. After, yes there may
be some maturation process in the awakened state. When a master
communicates to people it is to some degree via the mind, at least in
their public discourses. The mind will be a product of the past and hence
the communications will be shaped in part by elements of the personality,
which are no longer identified with but still constitute part of the
relating tools. They will evolve over time, in this maturation process,
but this is not me i'm talking about.

I don't feel complete, therefore i am not complete.

HANS:
3. I will not claim to teach masses right now. I am not stupid. But
eventually I have to turn on as many people as possible, for the
simple reason, that only me is here and I don't accept any part of me
to suffer unnecessarily.

SARLO:
You can't know now how you are going to behave after you awaken. Your
noble bodhisattva-type vow may disappear in the fire of awakening. Maybe,
maybe not.

HANS:
Osho is just a thought. A creation. As long as I see this thought
above me I do the greatest disservice to the master, who worked his
ass off to get me fuckin' awake.

SARLO:
If i awaken in 10,000 lifetimes it will be soon enough to honour my
master. My mind says my awakening is needed now because the planet is in
such terrible shape but it's really not up to me.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
TAMARA, JAN, JOHN DUFF

TAMARA:
that what I am is whole, still and eternal, unmoving,
ever present, omnipotent.....

And I am also a woman and human and wanted to be loved.....

JAN:
You are right, nonduality can be "pursued" to the extreme, where what
could be called "the human interface" loses validity and only Freedom
reigns. On a more "realistic" level, nonduality is meant to "remove"
the mal or sense of "I", or more poetically, the river to merge with
the ocean, knowing that the essence of both the river and the ocean is
water. From this perspective, human relations can be most fulfilling,
as one can see the reflection of the ocean in the eyes of a loved one
and the loved one will see it in your eyes, knowing there is only Love.


JOHN:
The gifts. The One for the Woman. The Woman for the One. Be both.
Invite the One for dinner, a marvelous accompaniment to any meal.


HARSHA:
The radical perspective that Oneness permeates all reality and Is The
Reality cannot be fully embraced unless one is ripe for it. It is not enough
to say intellectually that I am god.

Satsangha and spiritual practice set the context to Recognize what One
Already Is.

Most religions and traditions speak of practices and behavior that are
supportive of spiritual aspirations and enlightenment or Self-Realization.
The seeking of and abidance in the "I AM" awareness indicates the deepest
longing of the Soul to be in Communion with IT Self.

To Recognize the Self, the mind needs to become peaceful and calm. An
agitated mind gets in its own way.

Right Vision, Right Conduct, and Right Practice are conducive to the mind
subsiding in the Self. The mind becomes peaceful when we learn to
distinguish between that which is ever-changing and That which is never
changing.

When we truly learn the difference between the Real and Unreal we do not
cling because we know it is not possible to possess anything or anyone and
it is not possible for anyone or anything to possess us. That is wisdom.
Wisdom is detachment. Detachment does not mean leaving people or going away
from family and friends. It is simply coming to and
abiding in your Self while you carry on activities compelled by your nature.
No one can give up action as compelled by their nature (karmas).

Right conduct is that conduct which is colored by the feeling of nonviolence
and amity towards other living beings. It helps to dissolve fear, anger, and
guilt and makes the mind suitable for higher meditation. Right practice is
that spiritual practice which reveals the nature of the Self.

Love to all
Harsha

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MELODIC POEMS


Royal, here's some Rumi.....just for you:


"The Achemy of Love"

You come to us
from another world

From beyond the stars
and void of space.
Transcendent, Pure,
Of unimaginable beauty,
Bringing with you
the essence of love

You transform all
who are touched by you.
Mundane concerns,
troubles, and sorrows
dissolve in your presence,
Bringing joy
to ruler and ruled
To peasand and king

You bewilder us
with your grace.
All evils
transform into
goodness.

You are the master alchemist.

You light the fire of love
in earth and sky
in heart and soul
and every being.

Through your loving
existence and nonexistence merge.
All opposites unite.
All that is profane
becomes sacred again.

(...translated by Deepak Chopra
and Fereydoun Kia )

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