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Tuesday, September 19


Hello. This is some of the best of over 240 posts on
Tuesday. I'm not usually into begging, but this issue of the
highlights took me several hours and I'm begging everyone to
read every word. Of course the other editors work just as
hard, but they haven't learned how to beg yet. There's some
amazing stuff here. Thanks!

--Jerry


NOBODY EAST

Shameless Father

Father was born 1906 and died 1997. He was 42 years old,
when my birth happened, 3 years after WW2. His school- and
studies he finished quickly in Berlin. As young judge he
started his career. In his first days of work he showed
behind the wall on the big swastika (Hakenkreuz) and
complained with the words:

"Under this sign of a political party right-speaking shall
be done."

He was very afraid of Nazi punishment and changed his job
immediately.

He started his career in the civil post-service like his
father has done. My grandfather was still working in these
times in a high official position.

When the war started father organized the war-mail for
soldiers in Paris. He reported proudly, that he never had
to kill people. He used his 9 millimeter pistol for
shooting raven only.

In these days in Paris he needed a women for typewriting.
He choosed amongst the german women a young one, who the
German army brought from her home town Danzig, now a polish
town. This woman became my mother.

My father never told anything, how the war was lost. My two
elder brothers lost their mother in these last days of war
or short after war. She killed herself. My father never
told us about these facts. When his oldest son shoot
himself to death in the year 1960 this was kept as family
secret too.

As far it is understood now father's muscle armor was not
designed to feel shame or guilt, maybe his muscle armor was
designed not to feel at all.

When books started to become my obsession, he throw a big
part of his library on the garbage. There was great sadness
for me to loose again some secret keys of understanding.

Father's emotions to these and other events were rage:

"Now it is a reason for punishment only to possess these
books!"

So the books had to be thrown away.

For me as a child it became more and more impossible to
understand the situation in the family. When his eldest son
left school and came with an American styled jacket, called
"Parker" and very popular for young people, he was in great
rage. Like usual. Americans were his greatest enemies. When
the parents mentioned someone to be a Jew, they softened
their voice.

Father's idea of American culture was, that the
winner-nation tried to re-educate Germans and spoiled them
mentally. When all press-people announced for example a
British racer "Stirling Moss" in English pronunciation, he
always insisted to speak these "Stirling" in the German
way. With his ideas he was very alone. Shame over shame was
felt more and more about Father's shamelessness.

Later when the parents bought the first television in the
year 1962 there were night films about the Nazi cruelties.
Father would never have watched these movies. But when the
parents went out for an event, I tried to understand these
war-times, the family-situation, myself…. mostly in vain.

All possibilities to ask father about war-times became
impossible. My opinions about things got as hard as his -
with contrary directions.

Father lived his strict discipline up to his death-bed.
Once in his life I remember him laughing, he was drunk in
the Hofbräu-Haus in Munich, a second time when we watched a
football-match in Dortmund. People behind us got angry
about father's laughter. I felt fear and shame, Father
never.

He was drinking his bottle wine at night after work,
smoking his big cigars. He worked till his age of 65 years
and retired with a decoration of the government
(Bundesverdienstkreuz). He was proud that in all his
working years he was only 5 days sick. In winter he liked
to swim in ice-cold water. And so on and so on…

When he got his first brain-stroke 1990 he even wanted to
drive his car home from Italy on his own. My brother had
nearly to force the old man, to drive him home. When he
planned his usual Italy holidays 1995 he got a very severe
brain-stroke.

But the doctors saved his life. He tried everything to kill
himself in the hospital. But the doctors saved his life. He
refused food, and was forced to be nourished through a
stomach-probe. We had to bring him in a hospice. His heart
was really strong and would have beaten several years
longer.

But in the year 1997 my mother could not stand the pain in
this hospice any longer. And we found a wise doctor, who
saw that father was determined to die. So we brought him
home. For his last 6 weeks he only got fluids through his
stomach-probe and finally died the 12. December 1997, one
day after Bhagwan' birthday.

Although he lived very modestly, he left back about one
million Mark for his wife and us children.

Nobody, 19th, September, 00

My German book about "Vater's Sterben und Tod" you can load
on my homepage.
http://www.planet-interkom.de/erhard.thomas/

___________________________________________________________

SARAH WINTER

I want to share what it means for me to be born in Germany.

In my youth I was travelling a lot. I never liked Germany
and always wanted to get out of here. The first time I got
resented for being "a German" was in France. It was
devastating because anyway I suffered from having low self
esteem, I was not only German but also had red hair and was
ridiculed a lot, so it all mixed within my psyche and
became a fuzzy sense of somehow being totally wrong by
nature.

While studying social work in Berlin I choose to explore
and write about "every day life in the 3. Reich", we
interviewed people about how it all could have happened,
why did nobody stop the Holocaust. The amazing thing for me
was, that most people said they were so involved in there
daily work that there was no time to be busy with politics.
Nobody I met felt mean and like a killer, so people
seemingly were basically lethargic. My mother was working
as a typewriter in an important Nazi-office in Berlin (it
feels like a confession to write that here). She told me,
she loved Stauffenberg (the officer who tried to kill
Hitler), that tears of joy came to her eyes when she saw on
the news machine that Hitler was shot (which was by
mistake) but she was not courageous enough to open her
mouth, it would have meant death. I feel I carry the shame
of my mother of having participated, being of different
opinion but not opening the mouth out of fear of death.

This past is like a dead elephant, the collective cloak of
guilt and shame. And it is hard to lift it and come back to
life from there.

______________________________________________________________


MANU

This morning I had a look into my load of shame. I always
thought that I just can feel shame when I did something
wrong. Then I saw that this is just one, the personal
level. The more I free my attention from the personal level
by feeling the feelings when they occur without avoiding
them the more I see that there is a whole lot of shame
behind which has nothing to do with "me personally". I
experience it as very impersonal, as a kind of heritage I
got from my upbringing and yet most real. I experience that
the more I become aware of it the more personal it gets. I
realized that the unawareness about this layer installs
exactly this "I am something wrong" experience of shame.
For years I was struggling with this burden - I thought, I
didn't do anything wrong, I have nothing to do with what my
parents or grandparents did. I had to surrender to the fact
that this is all me, that I cannot separate myself from the
so called German past. I see the gold laying in the
shit(like always). The gift is the experience of feeling
layer after layer which is like a melting pot and at the
same time something new gets born which has something to do
with dignity, with a real sense of I, with compassion and
empowerment of love. Maybe this is also a reason why people
insist on letting the Nazis being the Nazis and the victims
of Nazis remaining the victims - because this empowerment
also means that there are no enemies anymore, nobody to
blame and use for putting oneself on a higher, more
advanced level - it would mean to let another beauty
flower. And by letting the victim game going on the earth
dies.

___________________________________________________________________

ELLY SEIDEL

Yes there is the fear.

On the personal side my parents, teachers did the best so
there was no chance to be myself.

On the collective side I am meeting Hitler again. Hitler
was himself. This was his power. The worst has happened.

It is my belief that on the way to realisation something
like Zen was in the east is needed. I am not speaking from
my own experiences but what I read and what I heard it is
leading through intense times and guidance is needed.

______________________________________________________________

RALF WIEKNEN

if shame is not admitted and strength not felt, adult
relations are not possible.

--------------------

Dear Melissa,

I don't know you but I definitely believe you are real. You
wrote that everybody here seems to be more enlightened than
everybody. No computer could write such a statement. Even
the great Bertrand Russel considered this to be a logical
problem on which he spend much time.

_______________________________________________________________

POU

Zen is about eating 'oneness' for lunch. It's about having
coffee with two-ness, but sorry to have troubled you ...
I'll let you get back to your dreams of one-ness, of your
fantasy heaven. Of your child-like toys of searching. And
remember, whenever you get close to the goal posts, I'm
sure you'll move them. Just to make sure the search goes on
a little bit longer.

---------------------

like every other human being on this planet you will have
to enter into that let-go. And believe you me, that is one
of the most frightening things a human being can enter
into. The stage of entering into a deep intense
relationship with a living Master where every area, every
concept, every belief system of how you expect it should be
is shattered. It is only through this shattering that we
step into the realisation that I am love, I am bliss, I am
the Self.

------------------------

Burn your Gurdjieff books, burn all your photos, you've got
lost in the messenger. You've forgotten the message and
that is always the danger of clinging to dead teachers,
dead masters.

_________________________________________________________

MICHELE

My grandfather emigrate to Southamerica before the first
world war and he never returned or visited his homeland
again. When he died in the seventies my mother put a big
nazi-flag around his coffin and he was buried like this. I
was in that time in my puberty, learning at school about
the atrocities of the nazi-regime and had a lot of
discussions with my mother because I believed she should
have compassion with the victims of the nazi-regime. I was
angry and confused and felt a lot of shame. For her it was
very clear: It had been the last will of her father who had
been a very proud german and never lost the connection with
his roots and she felt compassion with him.

Today I can embrace this part too.

____________________________________________________________

TAMARA

Tell this abstract advaita that you stated to me, to a
jewish person who lost his/her whole family through the
holocaust. Also really go into the feeling, who it is for
us young Germans, being in America, England, France in
contact with people, who see me through the filter of a
Nazi!!!!!!!

_____________________________________________________________

JUTTA

I personally love this way of sharing. It is the first time
that I partipate in the internet in a group like this. I
enjoy it! It helps me to communicate more freely. Often
when I speak from face to face I don`t take enough time for
what wants to be said by this entity called "Jutta". Here I
take my time and I decide where I want to respond where
not. I have no hurry, I just flow with the flow....

In the moment I enjoy so much that I even put "work" aside.
I fell enriched immensely by sharing and by reading.

------------------------

I am reminded of this beautiful children book from Neale
Donald Walsch: "The Little Soul and the Sun" in german:
"Ich bin das Licht!"

This book helped me so much to understand how awareness
wants to experience all the aspects of human life! All the
time when I read again the part where the little soul wants
to experience being able to forgive and the friendly soul
offers to help her out in doing something really bad to her
in her next life....I cry.... it touches me so deep! It
touches my personal and collective german wounds of having
been cruel, brutal, tortoures, having been destroying other
peoples beauty, having been wrong and criminal and
killing...... lifetimes in every possible costume, in faces
of different nations having been a murderer, a killer, a
tyran, a dishonest rat, a bad awful lier and and
and............

Yes, is there really certainty that all the Hitlers, the
Stalins, the Hamann, Dschingis Khan ect... are not a
vehicles of God?

So often in my daily life I do step someone at the feet.
Not deliberately, but "it happens". Immediately there is a
feeling of giult inside. Often when looked deeper into the
situation, there is a benefit somewhere, it wanted to
happen, it maybe touched something in the other what he
wanted to become aware of.... By sharing between
responsible beeings all the aspects of a situation can get
clear. The only prerequisite for this sharing quality is
the ability to feel, to feel what is going on. To allow the
feeling to just be without reacting to it, without judging
it, without trying to avoid, denying or littleing it.

This doesn`t mean, that there is no responsibilty of action
required. I go for it to bring light and love and
compassion to every corner of life! But my experience is
that this is only possible if the attention is not anymore
on the "dark" side. But attention is fixed there as long as
I deny, forget, fight the dark. In desiring and in
resisting something the attention is fixed to it.

I go for an enlightened civilization where everybody acts
responsible and creates in harmony and shares honestly
love, wisdom, beauty.....

But I see also the function of the dark similar as the mudd
to the lotus.

_______________________________________________

CLARISSA

I am German and feel like still carrying this elephant on
my shoulders. Although it is looking a bit different. The
shame of having a father that admired Hitler still after
the war is pretty deep. He was in the second world war as a
young man (18 years old) and he used to say if Hitler was
still here, Germany would look different...he meant it and
I could not believe my ears. I used to be ashamed for from
where I was coming from and tried to hide it for a long
time. Trying to hide shame is like sitting on this famous
waterball that one tries to keep under water and that's
always coming up again and again... Well, my teacher on the
way from the personal to the impersonal was and still is
through pain. Could be that's why I chose to be born as a
German and into this family!?!?

_____________________________________________________________

ALEX WELSHUK

Talking of Winston Churchill, his voice was on English
radio last week while all the letters on shame in the NDS
were being written. It was a week long commemoration of the
sixtieth anniversary of the Battle of Britain, (Yes), and
the charisma that comes through the voice of Churchill is
still something, and I was watching it trigger things in
this English psyche. There are a couple of books by Trevor
Ravenscroft called 'The Spear of Destiny' and the 'Mark of
the Beast' which go in depth into what you are speaking of,
and maybe the materials that you mention?

I don't think anyone wrote in the NDS specifically of the
English relationship to shame. I grew up with a father who
quite openly hated Germans, though more than the Germans he
hated the Japanese who he regarded as sub-human. Call it
what you will, but it was definitely a healing, I was drawn
to live in Japan in the 1980s and while living there for a
while shared a house for a while with a German woman! It
was very difficult to really find out what the Japanese
felt about the war. Analyses of the Japanese psyche say
that it is a culture based on shame, help together by
shame, and it is the fear of being shamed by the society
that keeps the conformity. In Christian cultures, it is
more a matter of guilt and social conscience that
determines people's actions.

Going back to the shame in the British psyche though, while
living in Japan, I went to see the film 'Gandhi', a lot of
which shows the British atrocities in India, and I remember
sitting in the cinema absolutely weeping with the shame of
being British. But the British shame is very hidden, and I
think there is still a feeling in the collective British
psyche of being 'the good guys' and quite superior. I have
been shocked to have this revealed and felt in my own
psyche over the last few years! Particularly coming from
the North of England, something 'us Northerners' are really
proud about, (!) and also having Scottish and Irish
ancestors, I could feel 'proud' of this. However now it
feels more like simply having 'roots', connections to the
land and the earth, and when I go back to the North of
England I passionately feel a wildness of spirit.

Going back to this word Zeitgeist, the other person who
comes to my mind right now in relation to these issues is
Rudolf Steiner, who has a lot to say on the time that we
are now in, and he is also spoken of a lot in Trevor
Ravenscroft's book as being one person who Hitler was
afraid of.

_______________________________________________________________

ROSE VIRCHOW

being a German this what you have written has touched me
deeply. I, being also born after the war, still remember
the athmosphaere at home. - My mother lost her sanity
during the war - once she almost lost her only child, one
time a bomb fell onto a house where she was in the cellar,
being alone with her little daughter, she was given a gun
"to shoot herself when it would get too much", my father
being on the front in war. The war was just over and my
mother being with her little child sitting on a bullock
card weak and hungry - on the way home where there was no
more home anymore. The track stopped and my mother tried to
find food for her child and herself - and left the daughter
for some moments alone - she went to some people standing
around where one young man was shovelling a hole in the
ground - another standing there with a gun directed towards
this man. - The war was over and this man had to shovel his
own grave and he did out of fear to be shot by his
"comrade" - but it did not help to do whatever was asked -
he was shot in his fear - why? - I am not sure maybe this
persecutor could not digest that the war was lost and the
one who was shot was released that the war was over. -
Something in this moment happened to my mother - she is old
now, still being regularly treated, often times clear, some
times "gone" somewhere else, almost "possessed". This fear
and insanity of the war we as children felt all our life
through my parents especially my mother - even though, they
did not have much, they needed comeradery, they were young,
and still talking about that time - what the hell could
they be proud of. I have a great compassion for them. They
are still alive. - Maybe God wants us to talk about these
things, maybe it is time now to release it in us and for
our elders. Love, Rose

____________________________________________________________

SURU

The signal of the ONE is just coming through a bit hacked
up that's all but it is the same signal which heals through
non-judgemnent, non-comparison, "being with" etc as you
said, or I will say, through giving over to Self. The Self
which sent the signal and wants the whole lot back even if
the message has been scrambled and hacked up.

Dan, I actually believe that the vehicle can be cleaned.
Cleaned of the concepts and the tendencies "I" have to
claim that it was me who spoke these words or did these
actions. Cleaned of the i-dea that I am a separate "I",so
that the mover behind all moves can shine through.

______________________________________________________

HAZEL

that one sentence of yours "Why not talk to the person in
the bus next to you of God? " touched something in me so
deep ans so essential that I am crying right now, feeling
such a futility -being German, words fail me sometimes- in
what we, I am doing here, right now. I really honestly
doubt what I am doing in nonduality groups an satsang as
long as i am not able to talk of God to everybody all the
time. This hurts. all the more so, as i have made the
experience of talking of god to the man sitting next to me
in the S-Bahn (tram) and the communication was mindblowing,
- and yet most of the time i act as if god was a dirty
word! So thank you for reminding me! And much gratitude to
this possibility of sharing and seeing...and byebye again
to the doubt...

______________________________________________________________

VICTOR TORRICO

Being German, being alive, being troubled, being happy. Are
not these all concepts. We will never be able to truly
understand unless we go beyond concepts. We can discuss,
serve opinions and quote authorities for eons and never get
anywhere. We are all wo/men of tolerance and good feeling
towards others. Where has this led over the Centuries?
Nowhere --- except to more pain and suffering. What must be
done on an individual by individual basis? Huang Po
describes it very clearly below --- return to your source
the One Mind, conciousness, ordinary mind or Buddha mind
--- there are many names for this. How many truly want to
do that? Unfortunately not too many.

We all talk a good game. How many actually walk the talk? I
know I sure as hell do not. I would surely like to though.

________________________________________________________________

JAN BARENDRECHT

As my birth (during WW II) was very complicated and could
not happen without the use of electricity and gas which
were cut of by the Germans, their permission had to be
sought and in order to save 1 life, gas and electricity
were turned on for the entire city. Every birthday (until
my grandmother, who was the only person who could stand the
sight of the birth and the cursing doctor) died, the story
was told so at a very early age I knew that "good" guys and
"bad" guys can be found everywhere, independent of status,
race and profession. As a result I never resented Germans
or any other nationality as hardly a nation or people can
be found that doesn't have, in a figurative sense, blood on
the hands. For instance the Dutch (my first nationality was
Dutch) have been colonizers and regarding their atrocities
there are quite some horror stories. The sad story is that
humanity apparently won't learn: the Chinese suffered a lot
from the Japanese and the British, yet killed about a
million Tibetans. And it is difficult to forget a
documentary on the occupied territories in Palestine, where
conditions were reported to be worse than in South Africa
during Apartheid. And how about fighting a war to become
free from colonizers and subsequently fighting a war to rob
(i.e. the North American natives) another people from their
freedom.

______________________________________________________________

DAN BERKOW

Dear Manu,

Honoring your presence here, and Pou's, and many other
recent new posters. Thank you all.

I see what you are responding to here, and you make a
point.

Yet, I wonder, do you see the other side to this: Are you
sure that your interpretation "quite paranoid" is so fully
on target that is would not offend?

I am reminded of an African American person who was labeled
as "paranoid" by a European American psychologist, who
assumed that the attitudes expressed toward police could
only be symptomatic. Investigation by another therapist
showed legitimacy to the "paranoid" attitude, based on
previous experiences of harrassment.

So, who will be the one to define what is "paranoid"? The
police, the African American, the first psychologist, or
the second?

For me, friction arises with the judgment of another, as
soon as caricaturing of another is given, the description
of "this is who you really are, I am in a position to
define you".

Is there not this kind of evaluation and judgment, defense
and offense given and taken from each "side"?

Marcia's letter speaks to feeling a defensive and offensive
thrust in the previous letter.

perhaps "you" phrases such as you're not a serious student,
you're window-shopping, not interested in communicating
with you while you're in your present state of holding on
to control, have something to do with it?

Is this not how the parry and riposte goes, the dueling
nondual game for the one-up position?

Is this not how "sides" operate?

Reminded here of Joni Mitchell: "I look at love from both
sides now, from win and lose, and still somehow -- it's
love's illusions I recall -- I really don't know love, at
all."

________________________________________________________

SKY

Blessed Royal,

You said,

"Though I 'know' that all IS. I seek further unfolding in
this area."

And I say, you're absolutely perfect the way you are. Why
shouldn't a rhino be a rhino, splashing mud everywhere? Why
shouldn't a flower be offended by muck on her beautiful and
fragrant petals. It's not for her to clean up the mess. Let
the spring rain renew her splendor. Let her shine in the
clear light, for all to see.

_________________________________________________________________

HARSHA

any physical form of the Guru is only a reflection in the
Heart, the Ocean of Consciousness. The Guru appears in the
dream and is part of the dream. No doubt, the most
beautiful part of the dream. Upon the dream vanishing,
everything vanishes, and One Sees that the Heart, Guru,
God, and the Self are the Same and have always been the
Same.

________________________________________________________________


MICHAEL READ

All nations have perpetuated cruel acts based on the belief
that the had the 'soveriegn' right to do so. This is the
crux of nationalism - to dehumanize the other.

I for one feel no shame, not even for the cruel and stupid
things that I personally have done. But this I tell you - I
damn sure won't do them ever again. From here, to dwell in
shame is to not grow and change.

----------------------

The sins of our fathers/mothers are not our sins. Thier
deeds are not our deeds. Yet we are affected most deeply by
those sins and deeds.

To offer a personal perspective on this, I offer my own
life. Raised by an abusive Mother and an absent
(non-support paying) Father life was extremely frightening
and at times hideous for my siblings and I.

When I became a father (two beautiful and now grown
daughters) I vowed to break the chain of abuse and neglect.
This I did with determination a supportive wife and
therapy.

Last year my sister, brothers and I were there when Mother
died. During that time we had many close and heartfelt
talks about the way we were treated as children. My
siblings asked why we had to live like that with a mother
like that. (No, you don't get the details - just take my
word for it - it was very bad.)

When I opened my heart and looked inside for the answer the
others were asking, this came out. "We would not be the
strange, beautiful and wonderful people we are today if we
had any other person for our Mother."

My dear German Sisters and Brothers, you would not be the
strange, beautiful and wonderful people you are today had
you been born in another land. (You would have been some
other kind of strange, beautiful and wonderful people!)
:-)))

I love you without question, without end. Now, I offer
this. Love your parents and grandparents. They were/are
only playing out the roles given by God. They are the
catalyst for your being.

And for cryin out loud! Drop all that shame as soon as
possible! It's quite as unbecoming as a booger on your
finger! heeheehee

On another topic - USA's shame for Vietnam. When our
fighting forces came home from WW's I and II they were
treated like heroes. When our people came back from SE Asia
they were totally ignored.

We had not only lost the war, we had murdered women and
children in the process. All because we feared communism!
While it is/was legal to be a member of the communist
party, this country felt it had the 'moral imperative' to
stop communism in other countries.

We also have the burden of 400 years of slavery. This has
caused such a deep wound on the American psyche that it is
only now beginning to heal.

All over the world (and on other planets as well) this is
the eternal script. To grow from barbarism to awaken to the
infinite beauty of the universe.

I for one am so happy that the Universe never tires of the
play.

__________________________________________________________

MELODY ANDERSON

Is it the dropping of the identities that's so difficult,
or mustering the courage to face the shame and fear (that
hold these identities in place) that's the really tough
part?

For me, it is always the latter. With courage to 'see',
identities seem to fall by the way side.

----------------------

If we identify ourselves as this "body/mind complex".....if
we SEE the world as "one who can die", we .... and not just
Germans... will continue to censor our actions based on our
own personal [material] self interest.

If we, on the other hand, begin to identify our selves as
timeless... as existing before birth and after....then
fear, and the accompanying shame, will no longer imprison
us.

I realize that the shame that I experience from time to
time (not to be compared in any way to the shame you are
tasked to face) vanishes when I no longer identify myself
as the biological computer named "Melody". And the more my
'unconsciousness' becomes conscious, the easier it becomes
to drop old identities.

_______________________________________________________


MANCHINE

It's not just a matter of making room in your heart for
Hitler, because it's the right thing to do. Life unfolds,
exactly as it unfolds, precisely as it unfolds. Perhaps you
get nailed to a door, maybe you live on a yacht. There IS
something common between all the extremes.... there's the
truth, which is what you see, which is that you CAN see.

Compassion, Love, is what deals with unfolding Hitler
stories in the moment of the unfolding, it is the
realization, moment by moment of what this IS, not what we
want it to be.

_______________________________________________________________


LARRY BIDDENGER

Who am I? The point is, I am _not_ an American. But on one
point I disagree; I am not consciousness either. It would
be closer to say I am nothing, but that's not it either.
There is a hidden goodness in one's self that can lead to
Self beyond all else.

____________________________________________________________________

GREG GOODE

Enlightenment a social construct! Hold up your hand! Slap!
A High Five! You know, it's funny how people who teach that
everything is an insubstantial appearance in consciousness
turn around and take the notion of enlightenment and
authorization so seriously!!

________________________________________________________________

ANDREW MACNAB

Why am I rushing through life in order to miss it? You all
piss me off, how can I maintain my precious detachment when
you're all so beautiful? Thanks for nothing. Jerry, how can
you let these people waste my time like this?

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