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On Lucid Dreaming;
==================

From: "Skye Chambers" <skyechambers@bigpond.com>

I 've Just woken up 5 minutes ago from a 1 hr sleep and I'm
typing madly, but at the same time I'm
realising
I dont really have to because I'm never going to forget. I'm
so excited, I've just had a most amazing
experience!!

For the first time in my whole life I became completely
awake!!! in my dream!!! with all my NORMAL WAKING
CONSCIOUSNESS with all my physical life memories!!! I mean
completely awake and wow upon wow no matter
how many times I told myself that "hey I AM AWAKE!!!" I
remained in the dream! I was so thrilled I started
crying! :-))

Then I thought now hold it, hold it, dont get too excited
you
know what they say dont think about the body or
you'll go back into it and waken. So I thought O.K, I'm far
too
awake, if this is not a dream I won't be able to fly. And
you know even as I lifted off, to my astonishment, in full
waking consciousness, I
was a bit disappointed at the same time, damn I thought, I
would have liked that free extra room. Tut tut ;-)

Well I'm floating then and my whole usually immaculate home
appears to be in a state of renovation, there's people
everywhere, some familiar some strange, everything is a
mess!!!and I'm still completely
awake marvelling at this state of consciousness that I've
been able to retain. I start floating through my home, all
the while screaming to myself I'm awake, I'm really lucid as
they call it while I dream! I'm 'actually' awake!

Then I think, quick, nows your chance, check it out, what's
this stuffs made of and I start touching and examining all
the
surfaces, they seem to be like a kind of painted plastic
even the wood! Every few seconds I marvel at how I'm doing
this, I start to sob with ecstasy again as I stroke the
dream
substances its so orgasmic, this realisation, this milestone
I've never broken before, here awake in a dream! Then slowly
very slowly I become aware I'm in my physical body my eyes
open, no shift in conscious!!! and I
quickly and calmly go over everything that happened, then I
bolt out of bed and race to the computer and here it is.

So I get the feeling I'm going to glimpse the last of my
selfish illusory dream beliefs which will dissolve along
with
all my waking false beliefs.

Crumbs what happens now???

Astonished, Skye
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Skye,

It must be a feeling of power to so clearly witness the
contents of the subconscious. No doubt you will become even
more powerful over the play of consciousness. I imagine
you'll experience degrees of lucidity from now on, until it
becomes commonplace, especially of you 'will' it before
falling asleep. Lucid dreaming, as you know, is an entire
field unto itself and there are techniques to facilitate it.
There must be lots of stuff on the 'net. Lucid dreaming is
rare and difficult, and so is it difficult to be lucid and
aware while being awake. "Hey, I'm awake and I'm aware that
I'm awake!" Really, how many of us know for sure that we are
awake at this very instant. Couldn't it be a dream, and not
a lucid one? Couldn't the reader wake up any minute now?

Jerry
------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Petros" <xristos@earthlink.net>

Sounds awesome, Skye.

Don't be disappointed if it doesn't happen every night or if it isn't
always
under your control. I've tried for years and haven't yet figured how to
make
it happen at will.

I experience lucid dreams, but rarely, maybe once or twice a year. Maybe
someone has some hints about making it more frequent? I'm familiar with
the
buzzing too and it's interesting to know that this is more common than I
thought.

I also used to get what I call "abstract dreams," which are really weird
and
I never heard anyone else talk about them. They were lucid in that I
knew I
was dreaming, but there was no "scene" going on, just abstract light
patterns like the patterns on Oriental rugs or in those computer
screen-saver programs with the fractal geometric designs. Lucidity
seemed
to be a key component of these dreams -- I always knew that I was
obviously
dreaming and enjoying the light show. I guess I *had* to know I was
dreaming and that this was a dream since after all there was no scene or
drama associated with the patterns, just the patterns being viewed and
obviously I (let's say "the dreamer") was the viewer.

The only other person I ever heard of who experienced this was Philip K.
Dick, the sci-fi author. He used to see what he called "Picasso
paintings"
or "electric wallpaper" flashing by his eyes very rapidly (hundreds of
times
a minute) in dreams. It was a mystery to him too, though he attributed
it
to an orbiting Russian satellite which he believed was "beaming" some
kind
of messages into his brain. Of course, I don't hold to that theory . .
.

Pleasant dreams Skye!
------------------------------------------------------------------------

1) Train to write down all dreams.
2) While awake, look for common experience in dream and daily
waking life.
3) On recognizing a similarity, consciously think something
like "now I am awake and will recognize this when dreaming"
and take a resolve. If this starts working, proceed by
planning a dream for the next night.
4) Sleep early in the morning when possible as it will be
easier to dream and change it into a lucid one.
5) Some will drink too little at daytime and when thirsty,
think something like "when thirsty, I know I am dreaming and
can do whatever I want" and take that resolve, which will
"materialize" in a dream.

Happy virtual traveling,

Jan
------------------------------------------------------------------------

>Skye: 'LOL' :-)))
>I'm so excited...da da da da...I just cant hide it...da da
>da da :-)
>I dont care anymore, just sock it to me, crack me open :-)
>
>I reckon Jan might know something about this sort experience
>too and the pit falls. The word Skandhas comes to mind, does
>anyone know the definition? Everyone seems to have a
>different one.
Jan:
There is only one pitfall but it doesn't apply to you :) It is
possible to create a dreamworld where everything is "better
and more beautiful", creating attachment and escape from daily
life. For some, this already happens in day-dreaming. The
saying is, a coin has two sides. Which side is relevant,
depends on the perspective. So lucid dreaming can have an
advantage too, but in order to realize that one has to find it
oneself. There are no fixed rules; a beggar, having nothing
can be attached to the begging bowl whereas someone else,
receiving a nice sum, immediately shares with helpless,
abandoned pets :) Some men are overpowered at the thought of
just one woman whereas others aren't affected by a harem of
1,000...

>
>In just that short sharp experience I'm seeing that somehow
>the normal waking consciousness may be in the same sort of
>altered state of consciousness as the dream self and I may
>have realised unconsciously that both are controlled by the
>same illusory beliefs! So now I'm hoping I may no longer
>need to sever them. Maybe this is just the kind of
>convincing I need to fully realise that pure consciousness
>remains hidden by these dolls.

While waking, there is a strong samskara (activator) "this is
real because I am awake". This samskara is the root cause for
inhibition (fearing the consequences of going after
[unallowed] desires). In lucid dreaming, one knows one is
dreaming and one's behavior has no consequences; will the
inhibitions lessen, yes or no? This is but one of the
investigations to undertake...

>Oh but what an adventure, real fantastic Carlos Castaneda
>stuff. I'm going to explore it all the way till the complete
>dissolusion of the separate 'I'. After all I'm allowed to
>say my goodbyes to arn't I? consciously :-)))
>
>Much Love

Isn't the dissolution of the "I" the adventure itself?

Enjoy,

Jan
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Aleks wrote:
skye,
welcome to the lucid side of the night. oh yes, indeed, i
understand the
excitement. it's the only way to fly. . .
{snip of very interesting post}
....i find that if i set aside time in an afternoon for a
"nap," my lucid dreams
are splendid. always proceeded by a buzzing sound,
sometimes a feeling of
paralysis.

Skye :-) Great, thanks Aleks, just what I was hoping to
hear, that someone
else here had done this. I've also had the intermittent
buzzing electric current in the head (interestingly I too
had just begun meditating) just as I was passing through the
twilight zone into sleep, the current became uncomfortable
but my body had already moved into the cataleptic state,
next minute I'm floating around the room in the dark, then I
floated into the bathroom and look in the mirror! >:-o
When I saw nothing there I screamed, next minute I'm sitting
bolt upright in my bed heart pounding, phew :-)

But even though I had experienced that and have always
dreamed vividly and flying often they were always only
remembered upon awakening, nothing like this! This time I
was aware that I was wide awake! in the dream world, that I
had actually woken up IN THERE! On the spot memory :-)
shouting this realisation to myself it over and over again.
I was incredulous it was so exciting to have my full waking
self-determining faculties here at last, examining the dream
objects, astounded, knowing full well that I had had
actually achieved this marvellously first time state.

Aleks: more recently, i saw my body as little lights. it was
the outline of my body,
but it was just little lights with little light connectors
that were also
lights. all else was darkness. i just felt ecstasy and
goodness, and i was
hearing this music. . .

now, for me, these dreams are instructive on some level that
i do not know.
the not knowing is the most comforting part now. and the
"fireworks" are
fun, but i acknowledge that they were pointing to "a
something else." a
something that i am in-- but which doesn't, in fact exist.
ecstatic
emptiness. not illusion, you can't see an illusion, but a
something-more-or-less-nothing-emptiness bliss.

sweet dreams, skye!

oh have fun-- enjoy
love and blessings
aleks

Thanks for sharing Aleks and many sweet dreams to you too.
Love,
Skye
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I often here music in my dreams. And have had Kundalini
experiences heralded by extraordinary symphonic angelic
choirs, amazing and frightening. Frightening because you
don't know where the hell it's coming from, and because you
know what's going to follow. It's all very mystical, occult,
powerful and sweeping. I really ought to invite it back to
see where it will take me next, though it tends to come and
go as it will. I am in no way musically inclined, but I
should take the time to learn what you and Jan know. I
wonder if I'd be able to capture any of the music I hear.

Jerry
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mind 'Waste';
============

Melody:
>I can't seem to step away from the idea that we are
>all responsible for cleaning up our own 'waste'...
>from clearing the thoughtforms we have polluted the
>environment with....the etheric environment, that is.
Jan:
I find this an interesting concept, Melody. When
I meditate if I need to I clear the energy channels,
both in myself and around the home, and for my
son we have done work on heart, we had a very
long heart session when he was six, until he told
me he was finished, I was amazed at how deep
he went and how calm he was. He's a rather super-
active athletic type, so, to sit still for so long in such
deep peace, was interesting to see.

Anyway, very interesting, cleaning ancient thoughtforms
left here oh so long ago, hmm, nice contemplation.

Love and Light and Laughter,
Rainbo
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Melody:
>I can't help but wonder what happens to the 'mind'
>for those who embrace a 'no mind' perspective...
>very often by rejecting or by denying their mind as
>only illusionary.
[...]
For the knowers of the unchanging, mind resembles empty space;
without automatically arising thoughts or sensations, how can
mind be perceived? Without a stimulus, for them there is
no-mind or primordial mind (a matter of definition only);
being desireless, the closed loop: "stimulus - reaction -
thoughts - desire" is broken and the "flood" subsides;
(re)acting or thinking "on demand" becomes the default.
Instead of silence as tiny pauses between thoughts, tiny
thoughts between silence :)

Jan
------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Melody:
>Yes. I certainly understand this. But the essence
>of my question was not about what happens to the
>'knowers of the unchanging'. They no longer have
>any such hindrances. My question goes to effects
>of their 'shadow' material on those who do not yet 'know',
and don't even
>yet have any inspiration to 'know'.

There is no owner of anything. One of the universal laws is
that of attraction and repulsion; thoughts can be attracted
and repulsed. The flow of thoughts always goes by itself; as
if from a universal storehouse. This isn't a strange concept
because thoughts are considered to be subtle matter as opposed
to the gross matter the physical world is made off.

>I appreciate the responses offered to my earlier
>post. It seems though that I did not ask it
>clearly enough.
>
>Perhaps if I asked my question another way.
>
>People who have developed certain psychic abilities
>can receive 'picture' impressions, or what I call
>'thought forms' around certain individuals. It's
>like a picture album that a person carries around
>them in the auric field. And some of these
>'pictures', certainly not all, (which were created
>by the mind) are really dark, shadowy kind of stuff.

This isn't too spectacular even for skeptics; the analogy that
every wire, carrying a current is surrounded by a field. But
the stuff isn't necessarily created by the mind; it is
attracted by it. Change mood and observe...

>Some of the nicest people carry some of the
>ugliest pictures, generally unbenowst to them.
>These 'pictures' or perhaps we can call them
>a 'karmic record' do not die with the body.
>When the brain shuts off, they still exist.
>Even after one claims enlightenment, they still
>exist.

There is no such thing as "personal". No one was or will be
"owner" of karma. The mechanism is that there is unlimited
supply and illusory ownership can be claimed by desire. Giving
up desire relinquishes the illusion of ownership but doesn't
affect the subtle matter. Giving up the desire for chocolate
doesn't make chocolate vanish from the universe. Enlightenment
is "default" and cannot be claimed.

>My question is ( which may not be one that anyone
>on this list can answer ) ....what happens to
>those 'pictures'....those thought forms that
>become part of the 'matrix' of collective thought
>forms? Do they not become part of the 'inherited'
>mix of consciousness 'inhaled' by the collective?

The pictures remain but seeing them is a different matter. It
is possible to eliminate the possibility of attracting them
which could be called "work"; the mind becomes as pure as the
Self, becomes Self. Collective thought is unlimited already;
nothing can be deleted or added. What in human society is
called atrocity, can to a certain extent be found in the
animal kingdom too, like male monkeys or lions killing and
eating young ones. What would happen if a so called ideal
society would be hit by a series of catastrophes, reducing
life to a basic struggle for physical survival? It would show
civilization is but a layer of varnish.

>Does anyone here yet hear my question? Even though
>I may be as detached as hell from these 'thoughts',
>they still are being made into 'pictures' and entering
>the collective matrix.

If that were so, humans would undoubtedly be doomed as a
species. Because, the past century is the most violent one in
recorded history, not only regarding humans themselves but
regarding all creatures on the planet. The collective would be
saturated with it and that would be the end. It is described
this way by a SF author (forgot the name).

>Now, maybe this isn't true of a dozen or so people on this
planet who , as
>Jan says, have closed the loop and
>now only have thoughts 'on demand'. But my concern
>is not for them. My concern is more about all those
>individuals who claim 'instant enlightenment', and
>still carry all those shadowy pictures, (and continue
>to create new ones even!) and project them unconsciously
onto others..


The loop has to be cut - then thoughts won't lead a "life of
their own". Enlightenment is default. It can only be
recognized when the potential to clean the mind has become
mature. So anyone claiming instant enlightenment obviously
hasn't :) It means, there has to be a history of "conventional
stuff" that can be anything from severe suffering to a
"standard" sadhana. The process of maturation can always be
recognized. Sometimes it can be fast, like consciously going
through the process of dying, as death means the good bye from
loved ones, mind-body and world, which is far more than many
can take at one go.

>My question is, "why would we presume the shadow disappears
just because
>one had an experience of enlightenment?" Doesn't our read of
history, in
>studying the lives of the Masters show us that
>the shadow lives on, unless we embrace it...
>unless we reach out and 'own' what we've
>'thown away'?

Anyone familiar with surrender will know one surrenders both
pleasure and pain, the "dark" side as well as the "bright"
side. Thus, one owns nothing. It isn't even borrowed (that
would require an owner "high in the sky"). Any experience is
just an experience and nothing more. Enlightenment, being
default, cannot be an experience. On a gradual path one goes
from experience to experience, until experience is no more.

>It seems that for us to ignore this, and only
>pursue our 'personal' enlightenment is not much
>different from our dumping toxic waste in the
>rivers for our children and grandchildren to
>drink. It seems that a good read of the news
>paper would open our eyes to what we're doing.

If one believes in destroying the possibilities for life on
the planet, one is already attracting the appropriate thought
patterns. If animals have insufficient food or are unhappy,
procreation comes to a halt. Human population is rapidly
increasing despite the fact that this century is the most
violent one in recorded history. Enlightenment isn't pursued;
it is natural and the default condition. No one is urged to
procreate when thousands of children are dying of hunger,
diseases and war that could have easily been prevented, for
instance by adoption. It would be sensible to alleviate this
first. Anyone considering to be full of mental waste will
sooner or later realize to have attracted the entire mess in
the first place, including birth on this planet. "Repentance
comes after wrongdoing".
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Melody:

I don't think our minds pollute anything.....I think this is the
Christian
notion of forgiveness....we have done none of the things we think we
have
done....this world is not real....it is the creation of our
constructs....illusions gain "power" the tighter we hold to them....in
and
of themselves they have no power.....when we do harm in our world of
constructs...and then try to remedy that harm through further
constructs, we
only build illusion on illusion....guilt is the glue that binds these
illusions together....it is only the world that we have created that
seems
to inspire and require guilt...I think God asks us to step aside from
the
world we have created and to see that His world is NOT that...and only
His
world can be Real...His world is timeless, NOW THIS MILLISECOND, there
is no
past, Guilt can only be experienced in association with the past...if we
experienced it as present pain we would move away from it instantly,
like a
finger touched to a flame...It serves no purpose in ameliorating the
suffering/pollution of the world..to be concerned with the pollution of
our
thoughts...better we forgive ourselves instantly and release the hold of
believing our worldly ideas are more important and powerful than
Forgiveness
and Peace of Mind. We need DO nothing....The ego mind is illusory...it
creates only illusion...suffering is one (although when you're in that
experience the illusion is palpable...you can't fix it you can only
recognize it as a product of your ideas, not reality.) The Mind of
Spirit or
God is eternal and unsullied, and remains within us, always.....we
choose
which mind we hear...God's Mind, our true nature, knows nothing of
pollution
or pain...you are free today from all cleaning up chores....it's not
your
job...you don't have to do the work, indeed there is no work to be
done...I
think when we realize this, for me it's moments, not permanent, I still
have
lots of accepting to open up to, we stop "creating" pollution.....it's
the
acceptance of our perfection now....that heals the world....

Love, Kristi
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

My concern here is *not* about my self, though,
nor about personal cleansing. My concern is
about the collective cleansing.

In terms of Neo-Sabbatian Kabbalists, my concern
is about 'raising the holy sparks *together*',
and an individual's participation, as part of that Whole.

As we are all One, (or, as is often stated here) "there
is no 'other' ", another's confusion is my confusion.
One's sorrow is my sorrow. It is not enough for "my"
field to be cleansed. My concern is for my brothers
and sisters....psychos, rednecks, dreamers, or Hitlers
though they may be. :-)

My concern is that even though I may have passed
on to 'higher' levels, what have I and my friends
here left littered upon the highway for others
in the etheric to have to step through?

Does this make sense?

Melody
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Melody,

Yes, it's okay the forms which are left...
these are under the governance of the
Archangelic Realm, some are nurtured
forward into other dimensions of growth..
others must past on... but at this level
they are governed. For those who have
to cope with the realms, different traditions
have different people to work with them,
the issue is more that we have been so long in the
Apollonian thought-processes which discludes the
Dionysian realm of the Shaman or Shamanist or
healer ... the logical has disallowed and disavowed the
holistic or hologramatic, the feminine side, so, those who
are sensitive or wounded have few guides, but we are
integrating more and more and the Cosmos does have
all in its hand for nurturing, seeding, flowering, growing,
disintegrating, dying and being reborn, learning ever yet
more levels.

To be honest, I'm a bit embarrassed to have the conver-
sation out in public like this, I am sure there are those on the
list who know more than I about this, but, you, if you are working
with people who are open to this can call on the Archangelic realm,
which is why I brought up the Qabalah, it is in a form that is
accessible to our western minds, or at least this one wave of
the cosmic sea in her current wave form gets it in that current.

Phew, laughing, okay...
Much Love and Light,
Rainbo~Annette
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------\
----------------------------------------------------------------

Harsha and the Naked Goddess:



The Vision of the Naked Goddess

In total silence I was breathing
lying quietly unmoving
with tired desire life was ebbing
last vestige of hope was draining
having done my faithful duty
I gasped and took a final sigh
and felt the divine torrent explode
unbounded shiver up the spine
suddenly the vision of her beauty
appeared naked before my eyes.

With a smile so ever slight
lotus eyes were drowning me
in the pool of blue sea light
the princess of love was crowning me
the mystic lover of all the ages
inspired poet among the sages
who never made a show of piety
uncaring of worldly arrows
sang and loved the female deity.

For rest of the poem (The Vision of the Naked Goddess), see the
following URL.

http://www.telebyte.nl/~frans/kundalini/poetry.html
------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Marcia:

From the "selves" point of view I can do nothing because I can't
do. All I can do really is block the flow. So again you are absolutely
correct. When something is done it comes through "me". So
"me" does nothing and everything is accomplished. The nothing
that "me" does is not block.

Everything is accomplished one way or the other anyway. The
real question to me is whether I am awake or not. Everything is
done either way but if I am awake, something finer is present.
Whatever you want to call that is fine but that finer level or finer
consciousness makes all the difference there is. I am present.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


Phillip Burton wrote:

> Phil replies:
> "Earning, working, and deserving" are metaphorical, related to the notion
> that "If you work hard enough, you will succeed in life." Of course, some
> of the hardest working people in the world are also poor. The problem with
> the "spiritualization" of the work ethic, is that it is entirely ego-based:
> if "I" work hard enough, "I" will reach "my" goal. There is the drive to
> attain an imagined goal, which obscures and distorts the here-and-now.

Marcia:

This seems too simplistic to me. :-) It seems to me that it depends upon
which self one is speaking from. From one position what you say is
absolutely true. But still even from a "realized state" there is work to
be done. Perhaps personal work is not necessary because there is the
recognition that there really is not a personal self but world work can
actually be accomplished with a Self that has will.

> Marcia seems to react to those who say, "It's all here right now. There is
> nothing to be attained." I suggest a simple alternative to such a reaction:
> give complete, undivided, and unreserved attention to here-and-now, and quit
> worrying about results. See what IS and let the programs and
> counter-programs cease to be an issue.

Marcia:

There is a difference between reacting and responding. "It's all here
right now"

is the beginning not the end. A person who can be present in the here
and
now can actually do something. Letting the programs and counter programs
cease to be an issue is waking up.. An awakened man can actually
choose to die. Endlessly cycling through programs and counter programs
is exactly what the work is aimed at having a person see.

I suspect that seeing what IS usually happens at the end of a cycle and
is really a sophisticated form of justification. But that is just what I
have
noticed in myself. And I certainly can't speak for anyone else.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Mira:

Resistance comes in many forms. I see many forms of resistance
that appear
here that are denied...among the many non-me's. While I still
experience a
me, I like to point this stuff out....no different a compulsion
than other's
to shock or offend.....no compulsion at all, just the impressions
of the
mind in the service of the ego that notices things that are about
difference... Otherwise, you are of course correct....

Love, Kristi

When resistance appears,
it is welcomed,
for it is all included in me.

When a me appears
it is welcomed,
for it is all included in me.

When a you appears, pointing out stuff, to a me,
it is welcomed,
for it is all included in you.
And you are included in me.

Thank you Kristie,

Love,
Mira

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