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Friday, February 1, 2002

PAUL AND KRISHNAN

PAUL: (Krishna) says that people who try to
describe Him
are like the Blind men who described the elephant
and
fought with each other. I assume you know that
story,
right?

Would you say an elephant has no legs, trunk, ears,
etc.?
No one can describe Krishna completely, but they
can
describe Him to some extent. This is better than
giving no
information about Him or saying He is formless.

Paul

KRISHNAN: Sorry Paul. I was busy with the arrangements for
my Superbowl party. That is reason for the delay in
replying. I'll ask Krishna to give a detailed reply to this
when He comes to my house on Sunday. BTW, My friend in
India will bring Somarasa from India tommorow. Krishna
likes it. Anyway, let me present my view regarding this:
Blind men cannot see or visualize an elephant. They can
only touch the elephant, or hear its sound. They cannot
grasp the truth of the elephant fully, and they will fight
about the parts. One man will say that elephant is like a
Pillar. Another will say elephant is like a Rope. Another
will say that elephant is like a hose. Another will say
that Elephant is like the sound of a trumpet. None of them
can give any useful information about elephant, and they
cannot have a consensus too. Now look at the different
sects in the world proclaiming exclusivity to their Gods.
How are they different from these Blind men ? A
fundementalist Christian would say that Christ is the True
God. A Jehadi would say that Allah is the Only One God.
Different fundamentalist sects in India would root for 330
million different Gods (including Krishna, Shiva, Kali Maa,
Ganesha, Subrahmanya.....etc.) . Different African and
Native American tribes will have their own concepts of the
True God. How is your Sect different from any of these?

My neice in India has the concept of Batman as the True
God. My nephew opposes, saying that Superman is the Real
One. How are they different from your concept of Krishna as
the Real One?

BTW, Lord Krishna and Lord Shiva will be attending my
Superbowl party. So I have to go and prepare for my party.
Let me open another Budweiser. Cheers, Raj Kumar "Krishnan"
Nair.

________________________________________________________________

BOBBY G.

The difference in empirical knowledge and revelation Is the
crucial issue here. Concepts accumulated form a body of
knowledge. Revelation is required for self realization.
Something new must be revealed.

Consciousness can illuminate the same memory over and over
and a person remains in stasis. That can be called
restricted consciousness.

One-pointed consciousness is the occurance of ideas in
coordination with one's needs in eliminating the seeds of
karma. It is revelatory by nature. It will be constantly
new and unthought of. It can be simply appreciation and
awe. Or it can be memories repressed, fears covered by
anger, embarassment and guilt never faced or misconceptions
adopted out of conceit. These are some of the categories of
karmic seeds eliminated by revelation. Empirical knowledge
has no ability in this arena and mostly serves to block it.
The willingness to undergo revelation should become habit.

The point I have been trying to make is that the people I
have talked with on this forum are more interested in
revelation than empirical knowledge. Most of us have come
out of the arena you are discussing through revelation of
its nature.


Good Luck and God Bless,
Love
Bobby G.



_____________________________________________________________

BRUCE AND NINA

BRUCE:

I've been encountering ISKCON folks for over thirty
years, Paul. I must say that how they miss or manage to
evade the obvious fact that to "serve Krsna" *is* sense
gratification (albeit enrobed in saffron and accompanied by
finger cymbals) remains a mystery. Don't get me wrong, the
temple music is just wonderful and the fashion sense is
enjoyably quaint, but it is all clearly and intensely of
the sensorium and of the ego that aspires to superiority
via association with the ultimate "superior": the fanciful
notion of "godhead" and it's colorful "supreme
personality." Hare Krisha!

NINA:

Oh yes, sense gratification, one of my very favorite
hobbies! This, not surprisingly, reminds me of a story.

A long time ago, in a land far away, referred to as the
Czech Republic at that juncture in time, I found myself
starving and in terrible, demanding need of repast.
Willing, in that state, to take our chances ordering food
in a language I was able to mimic but not understand, we
found ourselves in a local 'downhome' place, downhome being
somewhere tucked behind the Prag Castle.

The restaurant had one large window at the front that lit
the place well enough from the entering side in, but from
the entered side out, walls, furnishings and occupants
silhouetted darkly against bright daylight. It was from my
perch on the interior balcony, contemplating the striking
difference between the light qualities in-to-out, and the
fish upon my plate that had been baked whole, including the
eyes, presented in a sea of well-cooked, unrecognizable
greens and mashed things, that I first heard the faint
sounds of...

Drums...

And singing, quietly at first, dopplering forward into my
aural view at the speed of skipping humans. Dopplering
forward, too, into my present visual field, framed as it
was by the dark restaurant innards, such that my view was
akin to watching a movie, a bright and brilliant movie,
particularly when the orange and saffron robes jimmied into
view, right to left, fabrics and drumfaces catching the
light, projecting it inward, altering the tonal qualities
of the space of the restaurant. The robed crew's voices
projected inward as well, filling the space, Hare Krishna!,
moving across the space in reflectance of their movement
out of the space of the movie. We, the restaurant
occupants, were delighted with the spectacle, our raised
eyebrows(and wide open fish eyes), laughter and broad grins
the proof.

But the story doesn't end there, though we figured it did
and returned to our eating of fish and mash. My companion
and I finished our meal, paid up, and were standing in
front of the restaurant, our discussion of what to do next
laboring under the requirements of digestion.

Two somewhat hesitant, out of breath small voices, two
oddly unrhythmic small drummings surfaced on the wind.
Moments later, two bedazzling orange and saffron cladded
bodies bounded into view, Hare Krishna! We stood by, eyes
laughing, watching as the pair gesticulated wildly with the
restaurant host, who, simply, wordlessly, pointed to the
left and glanced at the watch on his right wrist.

The forgotten stragglers put down their voices and drums
and took off! Robes flying, feet pounding the cobblestones,
drums banging against their bodies, bare feet and naked
legs revealed by the windcaught fabrics! Quickly gone from
sight, the echoes of their shouted Hare Krishna!s resounded
through the city streets, buffeted along by masonry, for a
nice long time.

Thanks, Bruce, for the memory. ;)

__________________________________________________________________

Perhaps someone in Cambridge would like to contact this person. It's a
good idea, if you're interested, to contact someone like this, ask about
them, ask whether they have anything like a website or journal online
you could read.
--Jerry


andrew etter
awe1235@yahoo.com
cambridge, MA
i am

___________________________________________________________________

JERRY KATZ

One of the things about teachers who may not have had
formal teachers, is that they were never given tools to
teach with. The Sufis speak of having a toolbox to use when
teaching. First you have to have a toolbox, then you have
to know what tools to use, and then you have to know how to
use them. And they're all secondary to the teacher anyway!

Real teaching isn't an easy game. Judi has the chops, the
guts, the knowing in order to teach, but there's nothing in
her toolbox. She needs tools. I really think most of us
need tools if we're gonna do more than snag a few seekers
as they pass down the mainway and close enough to our game
booth to get them to throw a few dimes. We need to learn
how to throw a few m&m's into the barn. We need to show
people it's possible to win the huge stuffed bear, but
getting them to win smaller ones. But we don't really do
anything with tools of any kind. I think they would need to
be used in private anyway or in a very focused list.

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