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We
Are not
In pursuit of formalities
Or fake religious
Laws,

For through the stairway of existence
We have come to God's
Door.

We are
People who need to love, because
Love is the soul's life,

Love is simply creation's greatest joy.

Through
The stairway of existence,
O, through the stairway of existence, Hafiz

Have
You now come,
Have we all now come to
The Beloved's
Door.

Daniel Ladinsky - 'The Gift'
Pub. Penguin Arkana

_____________________________________________________________

JERRY KATZ

Added several new names to the lists of living nondual
teachers and realizers/confessors:

Sensei Charles Shinkai Birx and Sensei Ellen Jikai Birx,
Cor and Inana, John David, Billy Doyle, Edg Duveyoung,
David Hargrove, Ishvara, Janak, His Holiness Sri Bharati
Tirtha Mahaswamigal, Mark McCloskey, Dan Millman, Mario
Nette, Ad Oostendorp, Bernie Prior.

most of these names come out of the research of Chinmayo on
Wide Open Windows. I learned about Billy Doyle from James
Traverse. Encyclopedia Britannica directed me to
Mahaswamigal. Edg is a guy I found on the internet who
sells a series of lessons. I have them all in case anyone
wants to see a few more than the samples he offers.

To access the links to these names, please visit my
website's home page: http://nonduality.com

______________________________________________________________

S.H.

I am merely a 25 year young dude, but based on all my
readings and experiences, here is my current theory about
the state of
"Enlightenment/NonThoughtNonDuality/Samadhi/etc"...

I think the state we are really attempting to talk about is
Unconsciousness.

Yes, I know I know, many people say attaining Consciousness
is the ultimate goal, but I am taking a contrarian tack
here, and I think you may agree or at least enjoy.

(PS - I’m going to go ahead and talk like a regular person
talks here, even though I know that if someone doesn’t
agree with my over-all theory, they can always act dorky
and get picky and say things like, “Well, you used the word
‘I’, which shows you are not in the state of NonDuality
because there really is no ‘I’, blah blah blah” or “You
used the word ‘experience’, which shows you are not in the
state of NonDuality, because there is ”who is there to
experience it? the ego is non-existant” yah yah yah...” OK,
as we all know, every single word in the dictionary can
easily be pointed out to be NonDual, because all words
perpetuate our illusions, yes, silence is the only absolute
truth, but hey, we want to communicate here, so let’s just
enjoy the words and have fun!:-))

OK, back to the theory...

Ahem, when we are in a deep deep sleep, we are in the state
of Unconsciousness. And, in my opinion, the state of
Unconsciousness IS the state of
Enlightenment/NonThoughtNonDuality/Samadhi/etc. The catch
is, during those moments of Unconsciousness “You”
(Consciousness) is not “there” to experience the black,
silent, restful state of Unconsciousness. So Enlightenment
happens every night, if you sleep deeply, but you just
don’t realize it.

Now, about a closely related state, when you start to
dream, you begin to project various imaginings, which means
your mind is starting to become partially Conscious... but
you are still Unconscious to a certain degree because you
do not quite realize you are dreaming. Let’s call the
average dream state “90% Unconscious, with just 10%
Consciousness in the background conjuring up images.”

Then, when you actually wake up and start looking around
and thinking about things, well, Consciousness is back in
effect once again. (Yeay? Boo? It’s up to You.) Of course
what degree of Consciousness you are in will vary from
moment to moment, from person to person, but on average
let’s call the average waking state “90% Conscious, with
just 10% Unconsciousness secretly lingering in the
background.”

Based on the above belief, here is what I currently think
about Enlightenment...

A person in deep sleep is in the state of Enlightenment,
because they are Unconscious.

A baby is less “conscious” and thus is relatively more
Enlightened than an awake adult.

A very old person is less “conscious” and thus is
relatively more Enlightened than an awake adult.

A “retarded/special-person” is less “conscious” and thus is
relatively more Enlightened than an awake adult.

An animal is less “conscious” and thus is relatively more
Enlightened than an awake adult.

Even though beings in these relatively unconscious states
do not consciously “experience” their Enlightenment as much
as you and I “get to” experience consciousness
(Unenlightenment), I think the relatively Unconscious are
relatively better off for it.

Anyway, OK, I have thus split absolute oneness into 2
distinct states (Consciousness and Unconsciousness) which
was a very Dualistic thing of me to do of course. And then
I even went further into Dualism by taking sides “I like
the Unconscious side, it’s Better!” Sorry about that, but
please bear with me a little bit further, for my real goal
is to reconcile...

Now, the question is, how to Unify these 2 states?

Well, during the state of Unconsciousness (deep sleep) one
can attempt to increase the level of Consciousness so that
“You” are partially “there” to experience that state of
silent blackness. One possible technique is to become Lucid
while sleeping, kinda like Ramana did by the way, which
means you Consciously realize “Hey, my body is not awake,
my body is sleeping, but I am Semi-conscious of this fact,
what a trip!” Stay mellow, because if you get too excited,
and become too Conscious of this fact, you’ll simply wake
up into the usual waking state, oops. On the other hand, if
you get too mellow and slip back into total Unconsciousness
again you won’t be there to experience it so “you” miss
out. But, if you stay right in between the 2 states, let’s
call it “50% Unconscious and 50% Conscious”, well, then
“you” can have a little taste of Unconsciousness. So maybe
this is what Balance is all about, what the sages have been
saying for ages, maybe they were actually pointing towards
balancing between Consciousness and Unconsciousness.

(Small note about the above technique, some people get into
the Lucid Dreaming thing, and they end up choosing to allow
their Conscious side to gain the upper hand during sleep,
like 70% Conscious and 30% Unconscious, because they want
to Consciously project images of their fantasies, like
flying, sex, etc, and mentally experiencing it, and all
that is fine and fun, but it’s just not what I am talking
about here today. I’m talking about remaining in the 50/50
state of just barely “halfway” experiencing the Unconscious
state of silent total blackness.)

So at night, one can attempt to Consciously enter the state
of Unconsciousness, feel free. Just remember, even though
you will wake up with pleasant memories of the void, you
will also wake up with less rest than if you had just
stayed totally Unconscious. That’s the trade off.
Experience or rest, which do you want tonight?

OK, and in the day... well, about the Day side, I’m gonna
leave the rest of this never-ending Conversation up to you
folks to go deeper. There are many wonderful daytime
techniques (or non-techniques, if you want to claim that)
which get discussed in this lovely realm of NonDuality,
like going deep inside to the source by pondering “who am
I?” to negation “Neti Neti” to reading heart stirring
poetry, it’s all great (I mean uh, “Great/NotGreat”, yeah,
that’s the ticket.):-)

I guess the main idea I really wanted to share here, is the
idea that

Consciousness is what allows “you” to experience,

Unconsciousness is Enlightenment because you are not there,

Semi-consciousness is the closest you can get to
Enlightenment.

____________________________________________________________

JODY

Further Addressing Paul, who is on the list to promote Hari Krishna movement:

"Paul is obviously a special person. I think something in
him is pulling energy from lots of people right now."

Yes, outrageous contentions are quite effective as 'pulls.'

I appreciate the gentle manner some have employed in their
dealing with these contentions. Unfortunately, those under
the spell of ideas such as these are usually quite locked
into them. It's a characteristic of the viewpoint to be
fortified against critique with traditional arguments and
pat dismissals of counter arguments. Just like the
fundamentalist christian, a retreat from the viewpoint is
regarded as a retreat from the Lord, and so the devotee is
very unlikely to do so, much to his own disadvantage.

As a result they come to be hindered in their ability to
recognize truth, but are quite effective in the defense of
their own beliefs to themselves. It's the vicious circle of
sectarianism that holds sway over so many in the spiritual
life.

The beauty of nonduality is that all ideologies can be
regarded as true. It's not what you believe, it's how you
believe it. This may seem like words out of the devil's
mouth to the ears of a sectarian, but the fact remains that
the Lord exists outside any and all theological
definitions, and He's quite happy to welcome His children
in whatever ideological vehicles they employ.

Paul is as welcome here as anyone else, despite my strong
feelings about his views. He's only doing what he believes
is best, and perhaps he's scoring some points with Krishna
for that.

However, it is outrageous to suggest that only one sect of
one religion has the exclusive franchise on God's truth. My
tongue is in danger of being liberated from my mouth every
time I encounter such nonsense. Thank God my fingers can
come to its rescue.

GREG GOODE

Some people, after they gravitated away from their family
religions towards nondualism, have complained about the
exclusion of other viewpoints in those faiths. Now, here at
NDS, just when they thought it was safe, comes someone
arguing that they come over to his side.

Actually, there have been several situations like this in
NDS, at the rate of about one every year. People who
insisted that competition, or sheath-cleaning, or
kundalini, or whatever, was THE thing. They interpreted
everything else only as a species of the model they were
promoting. They interpret the no-model model as nihilistic
and escapist. And generally, they raise a lot of energy.
And then they go away.


__________________________________________________________________

COMING OUT OF NOWHERE

GLORIA LEE:
I really like these cranberry scones baked at my grocery
store, but some idiot occasionally glazes them with sugar.
I hate when that happens, it's not the way they made them
in England. They also stopped carrying the round sourdough
bread, and only have square loaves now. And they often run
out of croisssants on Sunday mornings, if I go too late to
get the New York Times.

Life's a bitch sometimes, ain't it?

NINA:

Glo and Jerry,

Pardon me while I interject:

I was driving through deep woods back country North
Carolina the other day, looking for a place to eat that
didn't involve a drive- thru window, and happened across a
lovely sit-down pizza place in Waynesville. Initially
overwhelmed by the plethora of thrift store salvage
pseudo-antique memorabilia literally lining the walls and
nearly all of the ceiling (except where the Home Depot
$59.99 rattan ceiling fans dangled precariously over those
sticky boothes), yes, even dangling over some of the
windows and verily spilling down onto the tabletops, my
eyes eventually adjusted to the visual din enough to read
the carefully hand-lettered 8 1/2 x 11 sheet, waist-high
and taped (at a charming angle) to a thouroughly walnut
stained post (I think there were even some leftover
Christmas ornaments near the top - I can't be sure)
stating:

"Pizza only comes in squares. If you want a round pizza, we
will try. It might not work. You take your chances and pay
for what you get. We prefer you take your pizza squares."

Now, if that isn't some sort of thinly veiled threat, I
don't know what is, and I decided that rather than rest my
fate in the hands of some poorly paid, possibly bored,
probably unhappy pizza person in the deepest bowels of that
obviously ONLY orthogonal kitchen, I would take that ham
and cheese sandwich (tomato and pickle and iceberg lettuce)
with ripple chips and a side of mayonaisse to dip 'em in
and, yes, only water, not sweet tea, to drink, thank you!

I really didn't want the pizza, anyway.

Thank you for patiently listening,
Nina

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