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Saturday, December 15

JACK

I overheard somebody in the forest the other day to say that
enlightenment is where there is the total and absolute
possibility to adopt all or any viewpoint(s).

We all know we want our children to really believe, adopt the
viewpoint that inherently mankind is good. But children know
they are not always good and very often even when they are,
they would prefer not to be.

We can see this contradicts, what they told by their parents
from the parental belief systems, and therefore this makes a
child a monster in his own eyes.

Enlightened beings out of their compassion i understand seem
to go on adopting a multitude of viewpoints to show us how
fixed we are in our viewpoint about what belongs in the good
camp and in the bad camp.

I suppose you are one of these enlightened beings, but what I
don't understand, if all is one, then how do we manage to
split it into two -

-----------------

th the deepest respect to you mentioning that you ( the
USofA) are at war since September and with the majority
collectively entering from the limbic brain system into the
reptilian old brain in order not to feel the consequences of
engaging in war, it's no wonder that many people are not so
in a feeling experience.

There is one re-occurring concept that life is suffering that
does not seem to want to go away. I have this awful suspicion
that really that life is suffering and it doesn't matter who
the body is - just to take a birth one enters the realm of
suffering and from that moment on everything that one does,
and I mean everything, is to find a way out.

But after a library of books, videos, tapes and CD's,
spiritual talks, insights, collective agreements, viewpoints,
experiences, not a single thing has changed. There's been
modifications of the suffering, all which would appear to be
nothing other than re-arranging the deckchairs on the
titanic.

The amount of denial that we manage to produce in order to
simply experience without any mood altercating substances
(idealisations, concepts or belief systems) is simply
staggering.

The simple fact that to take birth means that one is either
going to suffer consciously to enter into the suffering in
its fullest dimensions or enter into avoidance of the
inevitable.

It's been said that the great awakening is not an experience,
that it's prior to all experience, bliss or hell, ecstasy, or
damnation.

The difficulty we have, it would appear when we finally
become conscious that we've entered into human realm, the
realm of suffering, and the more conscious we attempt to
come, the more painful the experience.

If it is as they say it is that we are the subjective and
personal awareness, simply awareness aware of all experiences
as they roll on through and to identify with the minutest
interest we enter into the creation.

Where the game seems to get somewhat interesting is there is
no way out of this creation unless its fully experienced. And
look at us all, screaming and kicking blatantly denying that
we were never really interested in it in the first place.

I am told that Ramana Maharshi never even entered into
discussion about the second world war, although someone did
mention that Hitler was said to be a fully awakened being.

If we are that which is simply awareness witnessing this
impersonal play of consciousness whether it be the events of
Sept. 11th or any other horrific event - Vietnam, Korea, then
surely somewhere we have to accept that there has never not
been a time of suffering.

I know of no-one anywhere at any time who is not in a state
of suffering or placing massive energy and avoidance to avoid
suffering.

I would be interested if anyone on this particular egroup can
honestly consciously really feel that they themselves are not
suffering at all times.

We can never understand the power of denial.

It would appear simply to be born is to suffer. It would also
appear that we are not that which is born. We are the
impersonal witnessing of that which is born which has to
suffer.

______________________________________________________________________

SU GANDOLF

"We all know we want our children to really believe, adopt
the viewpoint that inherently mankind is good. But children
know they are not always good and very often even when they
are, they would prefer not to be.

"We can see this contradicts, what they told by their parents
from the parental belief systems, and therefore this makes a
child a monster in his own eyes." --Jack

"People say, 'Oh, I wish I were in touch with my childhood
self, like you!' As if it were all quaint and succulent, like
Peter Pan. CHILDHOOD IS CANNIBALS AND PSYCHOTICS VOMITING IN
YOUR MOUTH! I say, 'You are in touch, lady - you're mean to
your kids, you treat your husband like shit, you lie, you're
selfish... that is your childhood self!' In reality,
childhood is deep and rich. It's vital, mysterious, and
profound. I remember my own childhood vividly... I knew
terrible things... but I knew I mustn't let adults know I
knew... *It would scare them*."

--Maurice Sendak

___________________________________________________________________________

GENE POOLE

NDS

Greetings Jerry and All;

Jerry, your recent posting has prompted me to put certain of
my thoughts to post.

How else can I say this; the world changed, on September 11,
2001.

And 'we are at war'.

There are many heavy considerations ongoing; much uncertainty
and widely expressed insecurity.

In other words, for a great many people, the entire context
of 'life' has unexpectedly and even radically changed, and
continues to change.

At every quarter, there are discussions and opinions being
hurled, to ricochet about in the skull of the observer.
Opinion is offered as truth; loyalties are being severely
tested, the entire of politics is undergoing change. Nobody
knows best.

It is not surprising that such upheaval does reflect in NDS.

Locally, the 'changes' are just now being acknowledged as
more than transitory. Economic and social forces are making
inroads which many find disappointing if not frightening.
Many people see evil portents in a wide spectrum of current
'events'.

The recently released videotape of O Bin Laden chortling; the
US Gov/Bush admin movement toward what could easily be
interpreted as fascist alignments; gross financial insecurity
'recession', anthrax, and the persistence of Hollywood
bullshit; all of this converges, and in spite of best
intentions, it does get through. Samsara is knocking
insistently on our collective door, and the temptation is to
answer in kind.

Nothing remains the same, at least in the universe of humans
who are connected via our network of instant communications
systems. And that includes our favorite mailing list, NDS.

On the other hand...

Grounding in 'nondual' reveals that 'nothing has changed',
but this view is incomprehensible to those not so-grounded.
Indeed, why would anyone dare contradict widely held public
grief, knowing that 'nothing can change'? Can the nondual
perspective 'fix' anything?

I see that what is going on is an intensely personal
experience, not really amenable to grooming by public
reaction or opinion. Each of us has experienced personal
loss, if only loss of certain happy, air-headed dreams,
fantasies, and desires. It seems that there has been a loud
voice saying, 'time to grow up', and that voice is not
shutting up. This seems to be a time of deep contemplation.

Personally, my tolerance for narcissistic bullshit has been
reduced to approximately zero.

There is no possibility of 'back to normal'; the future may
hold a new 'norm', but such is simply not available at
present, unless the eternal unchanging is available and is
defined as 'norm'.

__________________________________________________________________

GLORIA LEE

The mountains, rivers, earth, grasses, trees and forests, are
always emanating a subtle, precious light, day and night,
always emanating a subtle, precious sound, demonstrating and
expounding to all people the unsurpassed ultimate truth.

It is just because you miss it right where you are, or avoid
it even as you face it, that you are unable to attain actual
use of it. This is why Buddhism came into being, with its
many expedients and explanations, with temporary and true,
immediate and gradual, half and full, partial and complete
teachings.

These are all simply means of stopping children from
whining."

Monk protests: "But Master, yesterday you said that Mind is
Buddha."

Ma Tsu: "That was like offering yellow leaves to a child and
telling him it is gold---just to stop his crying."

Monk: "And what about when the child has stopped crying?"

Ma Tsu: "Then I say, Not Mind, Not Buddha, Not things!"

__________________________________________________________________

JERRY

Life might be pain sometimes, but pain is not suffering.
Suffering is failure to understand the source of pain and
joy, and the attachment of causes, questions and consequences
to pain and joy.

___________________________________________________________________

GILL EARDLEY from Nondual Quotes list

Remember: if you can cease all restless activity, your
integral nature will appear.

from: The Hua Hu Ching

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