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11/20/01 Tuesday

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RON

I am with Rashmi, we will cry together.

I can sit in meditation, in the emptiness of I AM, the vastness of
nothing, peace spilling over everywhere. The thoughts come and go and
occationally grab my attention. I move back to the peace, to the
emptiness - remain. Sometimes no thoughts at all. With thoughts -
inquiring into Who am I. The identity of the body remains through it
all. I come back into activity with that emptiness trailing behind
me, or arround me. But the identity of the body remains.

What is this thing called "Identity". - Just another thought?

Rashmi, pass your hanky.

Ron


JAN B.

Which reminds of the simple question:
"What makes the mind an infertile soil for thought?"
When realizing that true happiness cannot be obtained
by any pursuit. All pursuit given up, is the meaning
of unconditional surrender. Another way of saying
this is "meeting Yama" (Lord of Death) - sooner or later
everything will have to be left "behind" -
irrespective of thoughts or feelings concerning that...
And yes, it will hurt - that is the "cost" of sentience.

Peace,
Jan

JAMES


Thanks Jan,

Yes, the mind cannot go beyond the mind.
The intellectual attempt to "control over the activities of
mind" is a movement of the mind which is limited to its own
boundaries. The best that one can hope for with this approach is to
rearrange the furnishings of the mind.

Yoga includes and is beyond the mind.

Since the bodymind is an interconnected whole, the most
effective (not the only one) Yoga approach to a Silent mind is through
the Space of the body and the link of the breath.
When there is this Space the waveforms of the mind
relax/release into the ocean of Stillness. The content of the mind is
available for practical functions and there is no identification with
movement that arises and falls.

Love,
James


GREG

Rashmi Moorjani wrote:

Can it be summed up this way?
>In a conceptual entity, the apperception of the true identity
>may "occur". Not as an act of will, but through pure non-
>volitionality on part of the conceptual entity-Sandeep Chatterji

Well, that's saying something slightly different from your question
yesterday. But yes, both the supposed do-er and its doings are witnessed
objects. Witnessed objects can't cause anything to happen. Just like in a
movie, the image of a bullet doesn't kill the image of a person. Since the
willing and the do-er and any "actions" are never more than witnessed
objects, they arise and are seen, but possess no power to do anything or
cause anything. So they cannot cause anything like perception, seeing, or
apperception.

--Gregerji


RON

EGO AND THE SELF

Questioner: What meditation will help me?

Bhagavan Ramana: No meditation on any kind of object is helpful. You
must learn to realize the subject and object as one. In meditating on
an object, whether concrete or abstract you are destroying the sense
of oneness and creating duality. Meditate on what you are in Reality.
Try to realize that the body is not you, the emotions are not you, the
intellect is not you. When all these are still you will find.
~~~~
Is this related to feelings or thoughts of suicide? This occurs when
the loss of meaning is so great there seems no reason to continue.
~~~~

The "suicide" mentioned here may be a strong term. This is not the
depression associated with pain and not being able to deal with life.
It is more like Jan said "All pursuit given up". There seems to be a
natural giving up but there has been no replacement thus life at
times has no meaning.

SU

Is the pursuit of "meaning" happening? Maybe there is no "reason to
continue", there just is what is. Clouds moving west to east,
temperature dropping, sun shining, shadow on the desk, heart beating,
doubt, awareness, thoughts of suicide...

Yes, it is a strong term. I am still not sure why you used it here,
as if it had a meaning secondary to "to take one's life"?


GLORIA

Well Ron, they don't call it ego death for nothing. There's a reason
why for thousands of years those serious about spiritual matters have
gone into ascetic monasteries and taken vows of celibacy and
silence, etc. Nothing quite like it for flushing the old ego
desires out where you can clearly see what you are dealing with. (Tho
denial just for the sake of proving something may only result in more
pride and willpower, just spiritualized ego.) Nowadays, we are more
likely to have some life crisis provoke a confrontation thru sudden
loss, or former pursuits seem meaningless. Replacing them with new ones
may not even be a good idea. But just look at the missing
elements compared to a monastic setting where all this deprivation and
experience of emptiness is in service to some higher purpose, however
that may be conceived. There is a context, within which the ego death
itself is meaningful. So consider what context is framing your
experience of this feeling of giving up, in service of what is this
happening? That may be the missing element.

PS. Another missing element is being surrounded by other
like-minded people, those committed and understanding what's even going
on. Hey, I'm on here, cause I feel so damn alone with all this.
Sometimes I even cry about it.

JAN B.

When "dead" (unconditionally surrendered, no thoughts about suicide could arise - apart from considering
those thoughts with humor (Heck! i'm dead already so who cares?), as taking leave from life can happen
only once.

Both Bhakti and Sufism use terminology like "lover and beloved" - it is a kind of archetype. Even when a
trace of that exists, its absence (feeling of "nil & void") is interpreted as "negative".
That can give rise to thoughts of suicide - a signal to draw the beloved's attention.
The analogy of "scorned love" applies... In a certain sense that's the "explanation"
for "dark night of the soul" too...


RASHMI

I feel the need to cry! Can you please tell me something to make me
cry Jerry. In the meantime i'm going to consider everything but my
mind is running too fast!

Love
Rashmi

JERRY

Hi Rashmi,

You're doing what's right for you. You are the answer. Why go beyond feeling
the need to cry? If a person will sit with what's present, it'll reveal
whatever needs to be revealed. There's no need to go anywhere else or to be
in any other state.

love,
jerry

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