64.
Whatever pleases you, Keeps you Back
Questioner:
I am a retired chartered accountant and my wife is engaged in
social work for poor women.
Our
son is leaving for the United States and we came to see him off.
We are Panjabis but we
live
in Delhi. We have a Guru of the Radha-Soami faith and we value
satsang highly. We feel
very
fortunate to be brought here. We have met many holy people and we
are glad to meet one
more.
Nisargadatta:
You have met many anchorites and ascetics, but a fully realised
man conscious of his divinity
(swarupa)
is hard to find. The saints and Yogis, by immense efforts and
sacrifices, acquire
many
miraculous powers and can do much good in the way of helping
people and inspiring faith, yet
it
does not make them perfect. It is not a way to reality, but merely
an enrichment of the false. All
effort
leads to more effort; whatever was built up must be maintained,
whatever was acquired must
be
protected against decay or loss. Whatever can be lost is not
really one's own; and what is not
your
own of what use can it be to you? In my world nothing is pushed
about, all happens by itself.
All
existence is in space and time, limited and temporary. He who
experiences existence is also
limited
and temporary. I am not concerned either with 'what exists' or
with 'who exists'. I take my
stand
beyond, where I am both and neither.
The
persons who, after much effort and penance, have fulfilled their
ambitions and secured higher
levels
of experience and action, are usually acutely conscious of their
standing; they grade people
into
hierarchies, ranging from the lowest non-achiever to the highest
achiever. To me all are equal.
Differences
in appearance and expression are there, but they do not matter.
Just as the shape of a
gold
ornament does not affect the gold, so does man's essence remain
unaffected. Where this
sense
of equality is lacking it means that reality had not been touched.
Mere
knowledge is not enough; the knower must be known. The Pandits and
the Yogis may know
many
things, but of what use is mere knowledge when the self is not
known? It will be certainly
misused.
Without the knowledge of the knower there can be no peace.
Questioner:
How does one come to know the knower?
Nisargadatta:
I can only tell you what I know from my own experience. When I met
my Guru, he told me: 'You
are
not what you take yourself to be. Find out what you are. Watch the
sense 'I am', find your real
self'.
I obeyed him, because I trusted him. I did as he told me. All my
spare time I would spend
looking
at myself in silence. And what a difference it made, and how soon!
It took me only three
years
to realise my true nature. My Guru died soon after I met him, but
it made no difference. I
remembered
what he told me and persevered. The fruit of it is here, with me.
Questioner:
What is it?
Nisargadatta:
I know myself as I am in reality. I am neither the body, nor the
mind, nor the mental faculties. I
am
beyond all these.
Questioner:
Are you just nothing?
Nisargadatta:
Come on, be reasonable. Of course I am, most tangibly. Only I am
not what you may think me
to
be. This tells you all.
Questioner:
It tells me nothing.
Nisargadatta:
Because it cannot be told. You must gain your own experience. You
are accustomed to deal
with
things, physical and mental. I am not a thing, nor are you. We are
neither matter nor energy,
neither
body nor mind. Once you have a glimpse of your own being, you will
not find me difficult to
understand.
We
believe in so many things on hearsay. We believe in distant lands
and people, in heavens and
hells,
in gods and goddesses, because we were told. Similarly, we were
told about ourselves, our
parents,
name, position, duties and so on. We never cared to verify. The
way to truth lies through
the
destruction of the false. To destroy the false, you must question
your most inveterate beliefs. Of
these
the idea that you are the body is the worst. With the body comes
the world, with the world --
God,
who is supposed to have created the world and thus it starts --
fears, religions, prayers,
sacrifices,
all sorts of systems -- all to protect and support the child-man,
frightened out of his wits
by
monsters of his own making. realise that what you are cannot be
born nor die and with the fear
gone
all suffering ends.
What
the mind invents, the mind destroys. But the real is not invented
and cannot be destroyed.
Hold
on to that over which the mind has no power. What I am telling you
about is neither in the past
nor
in the future. Nor is it in the daily life as it flows in the now.
It is timeless and the total
timelessness
of it is beyond the mind. My Guru and his words: 'You are myself'
are timelessly with
me.
In the beginning I had to fix my mind on them, but now it has
become natural and easy. The
point
when the mind accepts the words of the Guru as true and lives by
them spontaneously and in
every
detail of daily life is the threshold of realisation. In a way it
is salvation by faith, but the faith
must
be intense and lasting.
However,
you must not think that faith itself is enough. Faith expressed in
action is a sure means to
realisation.
Of all the means it is the most effective. There are teachers who
deny faith and trust
reason
only. Actually it is not faith they deny, but blind beliefs. Faith
is not blind. It is the willingness
to try.
Questioner:
We were told that of all forms of spiritual practices the practice
of the attitude of a mere witness
is
the most efficacious. How does it compare with faith?
Nisargadatta:
The witness attitude is also faith; it is faith in oneself. You
believe that you are not what you
experience
and you look at everything as from a distance. There is no effort
in witnessing. You
understand
that you are the witness only and the understanding acts. You need
nothing more, just
remember
that you are the witness only. If in the state of witnessing you
ask yourself: 'Who am I?',
the
answer comes at once, though it is wordless and silent. Cease to
be the object and become the
subject
of all that happens; once having turned within, you will find
yourself beyond the subject.
When
you have found yourself, you will find that you are also beyond
the object, that both the
subject
and the object exist in you, but you are neither.
Questioner:
You speak of the mind, of the witnessing consciousness beyond the
mind and of the Supreme,
which
is beyond awareness. Do you mean to say that even awareness is not
real?
Nisargadatta:
As long as you deal in terms: real -- unreal; awareness is the
only reality that can be. But the
Supreme
is beyond all distinctions and to it the term 'real' does not
apply, for in it all is real and,
therefore,
need not be labelled as such. It is the very source of reality, it
imparts reality to whatever
it
touches. It just cannot be understood through words. Even a direct
experience, however sublime,
merely
bears testimony, nothing more.
Questioner:
But who creates the world?
Nisargadatta:
The Universal Mind (chidakash) makes and unmakes everything. The
Supreme (paramakash)
imparts
reality to whatever comes into being. To say that it is the
universal love may be the nearest
we
can come to it in words. Just like love it makes everything real,
beautiful, desirable.
Questioner:
Why desirable?
Nisargadatta:
Why not? Wherefrom come all the powerful attractions that make all
created things respond to
each
other, that bring people together, if not from the Supreme? Shun
not desire; see only that it
flows
into the right channels. Without desire you are dead. But with low
desires you are a ghost.
Questioner:
What is the experience which comes nearest to the Supreme?
Nisargadatta:
Immense peace and boundless love. realise that whatever there is
true, noble and beautiful in
the
universe, it all comes from you, that you yourself are at the
source of it. The gods and
goddesses
that supervise the world may be most wonderful and glorious
beings; yet they are like
the
gorgeously dressed servants who proclaim the power and the riches
of their master.
Questioner:
How does one reach the Supreme State?
Nisargadatta:
By renouncing all lesser desires. As long as you are pleased with
the lesser, you cannot have
the
highest. Whatever pleases you, keeps you back. Until you realise
the unsatisfactoriness of
everything,
its transiency and limitation, and collect your energies in one
great longing, even the first
step
is not made. On the other hand, the integrity of the desire for
the Supreme is by itself a call
from
the Supreme. Nothing, physical or mental, can give you freedom.
You are free once you
understand
that your bondage is of your own making and you cease forging the
chains that bind
you.
Questioner:
How does one find the faith in a Guru?
Nisargadatta:
To find the Guru and also the trust in him is rare luck. It does
not happen often.
Questioner:
Is it destiny that ordains?
Nisargadatta:
Calling it destiny explains little. When it happens you cannot say
why it happens and you merely
cover
up your ignorance by calling it karma or Grace, or the Will of
God.
Questioner:
Krishnamurti says that Guru is not needed.
Nisargadatta:
Somebody must tell you about the Supreme Reality and the way that
leads to it. Krishnamurti is
doing
nothing else. In a way he is right -- most of the so-called
disciples do not trust their Gurus;
they
disobey them and finally abandon them. For such disciples it would
have been infinitely better
if
they had no Guru at all and just looked within for guidance. to
find a living Guru is a rare
opportunity
and a great responsibility. One should not treat these matters
lightly. You people are out
to
buy yourself the heaven and you imagine that the Guru will supply
it for a price. You seek to
strike
a bargain by offering little but asking much. You cheat nobody
except yourselves.
Questioner:
You were told by your Guru that you are the Supreme and you
trusted him and acted on it.
What
gave you this trust?
Nisargadatta:
Say, I was just reasonable. It would have been foolish to distrust
him. What interest could he
possibly
have in misleading me?
Questioner:
You told a questioner that we are the same, that we are equals. I
cannot believe it. Since I do
not
believe it, of what use is your statement to me?
Nisargadatta:
Your disbelief does not matter. My words are true and they will do
their work. This is the beauty
of
noble company (satsang).
Questioner:
Just sitting near you can it be considered spiritual practice?
Nisargadatta:
Of course. The river of life is flowing. Some of its water is
here, but so much of it has already
reached
its goal. You know only the present. I see much further into the
past and future, into what
you
are and what you can be. I cannot but see you as myself. It is in
the very nature of love to see
no
difference.
Questioner:
How can I come to see myself as you see me?
Nisargadatta:
It is enough if you do not imagine yourself to be the body. It is
the 'I-am-the-body' idea that is so
calamitous.
It blinds you completely to your real nature. Even for a moment do
not think that you are
the
body. Give yourself no name, no shape. In the darkness and the
silence reality is found.
Questioner:
Must not I think with some conviction that I am not the body?
Where am I to find such
conviction?
Nisargadatta:
Behave as if you were fully convinced and the confidence will
come. What is the use of mere
words?
A formula, a mental pattern will not help you. But unselfish
action, free from all concern with
the
body and its interests will carry you into the very heart of
Reality.
Questioner:
Where am I to get the courage to act without conviction?
Nisargadatta:
Love will give you the courage. When you meet somebody wholly
admirable, love-worthy,
sublime,
your love and admiration will give you the urge to act nobly.
Questioner:
Not everybody knows to admire the admirable. Most of the people
are totally insensitive.
Nisargadatta:
Life will make them appreciate. The very weight of accumulated
experience will give them eyes
to
see. When you meet a worthy man, you will love and trust him and
follow his advice. This is the
role
of the realised people -- to set an example of perfection for
others to admire and love. Beauty of
life
and character is a tremendous contribution to the common good.
Questioner:
Must we not suffer to grow?
Nisargadatta:
It is enough to know that there is suffering, that the world
suffers. By themselves neither
pleasure
nor pain enlighten. Only understanding does. Once you have grasped
the truth that the
world
is full of suffering, that to be born is a calamity, you will find
the urge and the energy to go
beyond
it. Pleasure puts you to sleep and pain wakes you up. If you do
not want to suffer, don't go
to
sleep. You cannot know yourself through bliss alone, for bliss is
your very nature. You must face
the
opposite, what you are not, to find enlightenment.