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Friday April 20, 2001









from an interview with Martin Prechtel in the April 2001 issue
of "The Sun" magazine:

When I was a child, I spoke a Pueblo language called Keres which
doesn't have the verb "to be". It was basically a language of
adjectives. One of the secrets of my ability to survive and thrive in
Santiago Atitlan was that the Tzuttujil language, too has no verb "to
be". Tzutujil is a language of carrying and belonging, not a language
of being. Without "to be", there's no sense that something is
absolutely this or that. If two people argue, they are said to
be "split", like firewood, but both sides are still of the same
substance. Some of the rights and wrongs that nations have fought and
died to defend or obtain are not relevant concepts to traditional
Tzutujil. This isn't because the Tzutujil are somehow too primitive
to understand right and wrong, but because their lives aren't based
on absolute states or permanence. Mayans believe nothing will last on
its own. That's why their lives are oriented toward maintenance
rather than creation.

"Belonging to" is as close to "being" as the Tzutujil language gets.
One cannot say, "She is a mother," for instance. In Tzutujil, you can
only call someone a mother by saying whose mother she is, whom she
belongs to. Likewise, one cannot say, "He is a shaman. "One says
instead, "The way of tracking belongs to him".
In a culture with the verb "to be" one is always concerned with
identity. To determine who you are, you must also determine who you
are not. In a culture based on belonging, however, you must bond with
others. You are defined by where you stand and whom you stand with.
The verb "to be" also reduces a language, taking away its adornment
and beauty. But the language becomes more efficient. The verb "to be"
allows you to build things.
Rather than build things the Mayans cultivate a climate that allows
for the possibility of their appearance, as for a fruit or a vine.
They take care of things.


All are blessed
justthis




> "As seen here" life consists 'normally' of desires and their satisfaction.
> That makes up a large portion of existence (some might say all of it, I
> don't know).
>
> Eventually it becomes clear that the 'root' desire... the one 'causing' all
> the others or from which the others spring, is this:
>
> "The desire to be."

<snip>

Concerning the concept "to be", look here, for practical advice, by
which to abolish this 'root desire':

<http://www.generalsemantics.org/Services/Articles/SPEAK_E.HTM>

Upon close investigation, it can be seen that Ramana et al are
'native E' speakers'; and that the ease with which they are able to
parse the language of any questioner, represents how closely such
_speakers_ have moved into association with and as self.

Repetetive Languaging injury (RLI) may be healed; the method of
healing is to prevent the utterance of and eventually the arising of
the thought composed of, invalid (nonfactual) language. This method
works, regardless of pre-existing conditions.

A more accurate spin on the hackneyed "The one who speaks does not
know", is to look at it this way; the one who is speaking is the
designated speaker. The one who knows, cannot speak, but depends upon
the designated speaker for oral transmission of what is known.

If the one who speaks is constrained to the use of language which
itself is constrained to a maximum of 20% of content of fact (which
fairly represents the common use of English, IMO), the speaker itself
must then interpolate* (an important word/concept) to a degree of
80%, in order to be understood by the listener. (IE, the speaker
speaks confusion to the confusion of the listener)

Bottom line: You are (yet another) victim of RLI!

Maybe I should start an RLI support group. Or, maybe NDS is already that...


Plane speaking,

==Gene Poole==


*Interpolate \In*ter"po*late\, v. t. [imp. & p. p.
{Interpolated}; p. pr. & vb. n. {Interpolating}.] [L.
interpolatus, p. p. of interpolare to form anew, to
interpolate, fr. interpolus, interpolis, falsified, vamped
up, polished up; inter between + polire to polish. See
{Polish}, v. t.]
1. To renew; to carry on with intermission. [Obs.]

Motion . . . partly continued and unintermitted, . .
. partly interpolated and interrupted. --Sir M.
Hale.

2. To alter or corrupt by the insertion of new or foreign
matter; especially, to change, as a book or text, by the
insertion of matter that is new, or foreign to the purpose
of the author.



>** I'm not sure why you make note of ego being involved in the
>writing. I have never read anything posted here where there was no ego involved. And that's a
lot of posting.
>
>All are blessed
>justthis

One might even take the question
you raise a bit further, justthis:

Where is any ego whatsoever in a bunch of
letters appearing on a screen?

Until the letters are interpreted
by a reader in terms of
"is there or isn't there 'ego'
involved here, how much, where?"
no ego is involved ...

The same is true of the universe.
There is no ego involved until
it is interpreted that way ...
for what may seem to the
interpreting mind to be good
reasons or good intentions ...

Dan


ha ha good one dan. I mean it's no true, but funny none the less.
If a man is alone in the woods and he says something, and there is no woman there to hear him, is
he still wrong?

All are blessed
justthis



Hi Dan,

you said: "Zen: Go to the end of a 10,000 ft.pole, and then jump ..."

Whew! I did this one. (of course being afraid of death, I chose the end near the ground, so when I
jumped, not a whole lot happened.)

Love, Mark

~~~~~~~

Hi Mark --

Nothing happened.

That's why it's "whole"
without being "a whole lot" ...

What happens on the other end?

-- Love, Dan



Hi dan,
what happens on the other end is complete serenity, a void, a
vacuum, an exquisite nothingness that is so completely beautiful
nothing here can compare to it. It is all sensation, being,
conciousness. There is a sense of knowing there that can not be touched upon here, it is what is
not.
Gracie
~~~~~~


Hi Gracie --

Enjoying your
description...

Wondering, if it's not here,
then how can you be
speaking of it? Or,
are you speaking
of a memory?

Dan
~~~~~~

Hi Gracie and Dan,
It is not here (as Gracie and I are long time acquaintances) nice to see you here my friend, it is
another sphere that is void of
human/inhuman interference. It is a place before/after birth/death. A real place of nonreality. It is
the collective consciousness of all unconsciousness.A selective few remember and accept that
they were brought back from the brink of this unreality to share with those who will listen or not...
the knowing is the acceptance of not knowing nor needing to know.

Missy

~~~~

Hi Missy --

You left out here/not here.
Oh well...

And as it's here/not here, it's not
in another sphere ...

It's just: this (sp)here/ not this (sp)here

Quite simple then --
here, after all ... ;-)

Love,
Dan

~~~~~~

Dear dan,
I stand corrected and gratefully so...I am a novice and dont have the lingo down yet... in truth I
really only understand about 25% of what I read here... perhaps not that much... just learning...

Missy
~~~~~~~~

Hi all ,
I am astounded and humbled by the response to the words i have left here. I speak only of where
i have been, what i saw, what i felt.
It is what it is, what it was, and what it will be when i am again
allowed entrance this( for lack of a better word) place.
gracie

~~~~~~~~
Hi Doc,
i believe that what is next does not give choice to us, we neither
wait nor move towards it. when it is determined that it is time to
be there we are neither asked to come nor is our presence demanded.
There is no choice, no waiting , no moving towards what we cant
change, control, or be. when we arrive there we are no longer
ourselves, but rather we are what is and what is not.
gracie

~~~~~

wisdom is knowing that you know nothing, accepting that you control nothing, reveling in the fact
that you are nothing and in these you ARE.
gracie
~~~~~~~

"The light of absolute clarity is flooding all around"
-- Nisargadatta

Such fools as we are, thinking something can be communicated on these
lists, when there is only Understanding. Movement toward or away is
apparent only. Everpresent is Understanding, "prior to" all else.

To seek is to suffer, whether it be 'spiritual seeking' or 'worldly
seeking' (there is no difference).

Love,

Tim
~~~~~~

Just so you know, yes the trip is indescribably painful. So much so that you can not even muster
fear. then in less time than the blink of an eye, it is all gone. there is no darkness so black, no
silence so complete. It is devoid of fear, of pain, of pleasure,
then it comes and you feel it waiting with you. If you ask it will
answer, but in much the same way as i find you guys speaking here.
it will not tell you specifics, but it is reassuring and gentle and
had i been allowed a choice i would have stayed. i was not asked, i was told, i was sent back until
it decides i should return, and i accept that i have no control nor any choice and we each have
things here we are to do. when i have completed all of them then i can go, not until. know this,
the pain is here and when we are removed from this place, we leave pain behind, we dont feel
things the way we feel them here. It is very diferent, but nice. at least it was all of this for me.
Gracie



Re: more thought, more work, responsibility and less words:

Thanks for your ratification, Gene.

Mostly the response was that all words are ultimately chatter including the words of the Buddha, Jesus, and Lao Tsu,
and that sooner or later when the mind tires of mindless chatter it returns to the center, stillness, and silence.

This certainly makes it pretty easy in the responsibility department, not to mention any demand for effort or
awareness on our parts.

Frankly, with no sense of judgment, I just find this ideology all too boring and as I said, NDS becomes a loss of
opportunity rather than a forum for genuine guidance and healing. If we can't distinguish between the Buddha's
words, and mindless word-games "because all is nothing"; between great humanitarians and spiritual visionaries, and
the Timothy McVeigh's of the world because "Who is to say" than I fear that pop psychology and relativisim are
running the show--NOT anything related to spiritual vision or nondual awareness.

And if, in fact, it is true that somehow nondual awareness makes no distinction between selfless healers, and serial
killers (for example) because All is One--then enlightenment needs a little "enlightening."

And dear friends out there in NDS land who are tempted to write back and ask me who is writing this, who sees a
difference between those who destroy and those who heal, who would be the one imagining there is a need for
responsibility, and that what is boring to one person is really enlightening to another, etc.etc.etc. please spare me!

Susan Dane


The Duality of Non-Duality
[Holistic Spirituality]

I think on this list we should be brave and not just follow blindly what Ramana or anybody else
said. We should explore new ideas that address the philosophical weaknesses of Buddhism,
Advaita, etc. Our [much maligned] minds can tap the cosmic mind for insights.

These thoughts just came to me.

Quantum physics states that light is simultaneously and paradoxically both wave and particle. So
why cannot Reality be both non-dual and dual simultaneously and paradoxically?

If you have not mastered or tamed all of these [body, mind, and soul] you are not fully realized or
enlightened. This includes the interaction with 'others', with environment, etc. Spirituality does
not take place in a vacuum. The body is affected, example: kundalini. The mind/ego/personality
also undergoes a major change.Considering the body/mind as illusion is the highest form of
escapism!

There are no illusions. All that there is, is God, even the images or thoughts deep within a dream
within a dream. All that you can imagine and that cannot be imagined is God, the Supreme Being.
Every thought of yours, no matter how foolish or trite is also emanating from God [& existing
within God].Creation is just God changing [developing, emerging, manifesting, transforming,
converting, metamorphosing, mutating, transmogrifying, transmuting, etc.] himself/herself.

Non-duality is the flip side of duality. It is all a matter of
point/angle/depth of view. God is having a lot of fun in this continuous process of recreating
himself. This process is unfolding without even God knowing where it is headed. Knowing
everything before hand would not be any fun would it? All experiences are experienced by God.
Sorrow, anger, happiness, etc. God is also everyone, saint, sinner, etc. etc. However, we,
splintered Consciousnesses with our own personalities are influencing and taking part in this
unfolding.

Don't get caught up in the duality of it. If overwhelmed dive deep within yourself and let the
non-duality there refresh you and give you strength to carry on this ultimate gladiator sport that
we seem to have volunteered for!

Enlightenment cannot be the ultimate purpose of life. Heaven, hell, reincarnation and karma do
not make any sense. Non-duality makes all these redundant. Beings who have got tired of 'the
game' get a whiff of non-duality to revive their interest in continue playing or play-acting.

As Krishnamurti used to say, "Don't believe anything. Find your own truth".

These thoughts are not mine. They are ours. Criticize/ridicule all you want or can.

________________________________
Love makes the heart laugh and dance.
I wish you Love.
CyberDervish
``````````````````````````````````````````````



** i don't know a damn thing about quantum physics but Reality is quite obviously both dual and
nondual. Call it enlightened duality.

All are blessed
justthis


:

Hi folks,

One cannot 'know' Truth because it is not static.

There is value in all traditions (they each became a tradition
for a reason) but ultimately all traditions are stale because they are the past (the known).

Innocence is 'not knowing'- this is the freedom of 'being'.

Love,
James




It seems like one of the last conditionings to go is the
idea: "everything has to make sense." :-)

Cheers,

Tim




Hi Tim --

Yes.

No need to make sense of
that which doesn't need sense to
be made sense of ...

Joshu answered a question
about Buddha-nature with
"the pine tree in the garden"
and also noted "what I'm
saying is very deep, although
most will take it at the surface"...

Love,
Dan



>Can someone please explain to this
>computer illiterate what the word
>"default" means when used in non dual lingo.
>
>Thanks
>Ron


"If this list sucks, it ain't default of the moderator"

"Why de quake, is default"

"Put de money in default"

"Default precedes efault, but follows Focault"

Excellent question!

Default: The natural or 'fallback' position of an element within a
larger dynamic system. Default is usually considered the 'position of
rest', or the position to which a moveable element will return after
contributed energy has been depleted.

In nondual lingo, 'default' usually refers to the natural (often
called 'prior') condition of wholeness, which is seen to be lost or
overlayered by subsequent conditioning, derived from experience and
stored in memory.

One is advised to 'look within to see what is seeing', thus to be
prompted to realize the perfect and unblemished (innocent) nature of
self. Conditioning, as it is borne by the experiencer, distorts only
the most superficial layer of vision and thus understanding.

The challenge is to recognize that the default is 'rest' (originating
nothing, or 'doing nothing'), while making nothing of it.

Perfect repose (also called 'abiding') allows the Vast Living
Universe to present itself in the space which is the natural
emptiness of awareness; the motions it describes, in unbounded space,
is the expression of the natural language of existence. The human
'default state' allows native understanding of this natural
expression, which we call 'reality'.

==Gene Poole==


Joyce Short wrote:

<snip>
>
> The fire is finally freed when no more fuel is added on to it.


Yes! Not extinguished, freed.

andrew


However ya wanna put it... this is how I might:

"When the flame is gone, and the smoke... only the sky remains."

Namaste,

Tim

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