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Sunday 1/14/01


Dear list,

I didn't understand much from the conversations this Sunday, but I
enjoyed the enthusiastic sincerity (zeal?) that came across... (oh heck,
just admit it Mark, you enjoyed the creative name calling and hair
pulling...) If you really don't like contention, bleep past the first
2/3 of these highlights and start up with Paul and Gloria's discussion
of Buddhism.

NOL.... new acronym meaning 'nodding out loud'.


-- Hobbes

White Wolf responded to Doc Hobbes recent posts:

Dear Doc:

progress is everywhere around you...have you looked in the mirror and
scene the changes in your face...that is the progress you are making
toward the death of the body, the mind and the heart...why should the
mind which a function of the body not also experience progress...your
name sake struggled in the name of philosophical progress...the
challenges facing creatures today require progress...progress that can
show us how to continue to advance without destroying the ship we are
on...what will happen to humanity if we continue to destroy
creatures...this forum is yet another example of progress...non-duality
is progress seeking inter-faith dialogue and enrichment of higher
consciouness...enlightenment is a mental concept as is
progress...therefore both are empty...only spirit is emptiness
itself...emptiness unfolding itself as the universe as endless, timeless
love...spirit broods over creatures with a tranfigured body,
compassionate mind and flaming heart of fourfold love in love with
love...white wolfe sends you love...there is never enough
love...progress is the very act of love...try telling your lover that
there is no progess next time you are caressing her and see how she
responds...white wolfe who is the witness of mark's spiritual progress
assures you that the work to be done in the meditation hall, in zazen,
in yoga, in contemplative prayer is never done for more than the
fugitive moment it is accomplished.... ^^~~~~

Namaste, i embrace the buddha, the dharma and the sangha, Pax
Vosicum...

further up and further in,

white wolfe

and then Omkara and White Wolf danced together:

O: Dear Wolfe,

This is not "progress" in the way of "accomplishment," this is change.
There's a big difference between seeking for a particular goal, and the
natural change that occurs in the universe.

An example of "progress in the way of accomplishment" would be to try
and resist the aging process and go backward. Progress takes effort, and
involves desire... desire for a result. In your example of aging, this
is not "progress" in the usual sense of the word, but "progression" or
(I.E.) change. It doesn't take any desire or effort.

"Psychological progress" is time-bound and takes time -- also involving
the illusion of a doer. Change is timeless and just involves one event
happening after another, in succession, endlessly, with no cause evident
whatsoever.

> the challenges facing creatures
> today require progress...progress that can show us how
to continue
> to advance without destroying the ship we are on...

Wolfe, you are very much deceived and living in a dream world. I hated
to say it, but this appears to be a huge blind spot.

> enlightenment is a mental concept as is progress...
therefore both
> are empty...

So why, in what you say above, do you strongly suggest "progress" is
essential?

Is this all just concept for you, mental verbiage? Have you ever
experienced the Reality, even for a moment? You sound very confused.

> progress is the very act of love...try telling your
lover that
> there is no progess next time you are caressing her and
see how she
> responds...

Wolfe, real love is the ANTITHESIS of "progress." Do you make efforts
and TRY to love? Love occurs. And human love invariably involves loss.
It's impermanent, temporary and ultimately hollow. Seek not the
permanent in the impermanent. Why chase *attachment*?

> white wolfe who is the witness of mark's spiritual
progress assures
> you that the work to be done in the meditation hall, in
zazen, in
> yoga, in contemplative prayer is never done for more
than the
> fugitive moment it is accomplished.... ^^~~~~

Now you've lost me entirely, I didn't even understand what you wrote
above.

Have you been OK lately? I ask this honestly because honestly, you seem
to have wandered into a dream.

> Namaste, i embrace the buddha, the dharma and the sangha

From the rest of your message, it appears you're *clinging*, not
embracing. It appears you're clinging to a "comfort zone" of some sort,
consoling yourself with so-called 'spirituality'. I could be wrong of
course.

Love,

Omk.

O continued:

--- In NondualitySalon@egroups.com, "White Wolf" valemar@m... wrote:
> radical non-duality
>
> "One of the greatest crimes of all is
> to stand - in silence
> in the face of wrongdoing."
> -Santayana

The question is: Who decides? What is right? What is wrong? A very
"saintly" saying, but it requires strongly-held concepts of "right" and
"wrong." He who is beyond concepts responds rather than reacts, and thus
acts in the service of life. If I have to stop and think about right and
wrong with every action, I'm living in 'the past'.

> white wolfe sits amidst dark emptiness
> and hears the sound of snow falling
> what is it that white wolfe hears
> that mankind does not?

It's just a focus of attention thing. Why make something "holy saintly
godly sacred precious wondrous glorious" out of it?

I dunno about you, but when I hear snow falling (yes, it's audible) I
simply hear snow falling. I don't hear angels singing in the background
<grin>.

Lately you seem very 'externally focused', Wolfe. It could be a
misconception. You speak of 'radical non-duality' but ignore the
"inner."

Who are you? The speaker is lost in his words.

Love,
Omk.

WW: Dear Brother,

that is why i created the universe...to get lost in it...the fun is
finding myself in the face of the beloved...that is you, my
brother....who taught me this, not you...the scent of Mirabei is the one
i follow...she who knows the dark lover...she created the witness of
mark who is the ^^~~~~

further up and further in,

white wolfe

p.s. stop being boring and go write some poetry yourself...i love it
when you do...

O: Dear White Wolfe,

Please don't misconstrue my recent posts to you. I certainly don't
consider you an enemy, nor do I consider myself your enemy. And while
it's pleasant to be thought well of, I don't care what you think of me.

My impression (all along it could be wrong) is that lately you're hiding
from something HERE-NOW, hiding behind flowery and emotional words.

I get the impression something's going on you don't want to face. That
the wolfe is on the run from a polar bear ... ???

I only want to help.

Please accept my forgiveness if I'm wrong.

Love,

Tim

O: Dear White Wolfe,

Please forgive me again. My disposition is very different from yours.
We share the same Awareness/Being, but "I" cannot enter your dream, nor
"you" mine.

At best, we can dream of one another for a brief moment.

This is apparently not that moment.

Although I admit no wrongdoing (or doership of any kind), I ask your
forgiveness for the intrusion anyway.

Love,

Tim

WW: Which one are you?

(to my teacher, my beloved)



One white wolfe sits on the sandy shoreline

Of a silver tarn high up the sacred mountain

Red, blue, gold dragonflies hover over holy water

They melt seamlessly into the precious sky mirror

Suddenly, a golden trout leaps toward heaven

And snatches a scarlet dragonfly into her teeth

With a kosmic plop she falls back into the water

Concentric circles ripple outward toward the shore

Each intregally enfolding, embracing, expanding

One gently after the other without effort and endlessly

Until the last one kisses the tender paws of the wolfe

Still sitting without moving and who then lifts his head



Pure longing howling of tender joy, sweet sorrow,

For what lies infinitely and immortally beyond!



Which one are you, my beloved, my reader?

The dragonfly descending and hovering&

The golden trout ascending and striving&

The noble warrior sitting on the shoreline&

Which one are you, oh my beloveds, which one?


Mark Christopher Valentine

In other news, Doc Hobbes, or Jesus or Poe, or someone offered:


>From: Daniel Berkow berkowd@u...
>Nothing is under control.

Then we best get control of our 'self'... just in case.

>That would require a controlling entity.

Or an entity in control.

It is a race after all.

I hear a lot of 'labels', 'symbols', and 'names'.... but today is yet
yesterday and thus what ever words or swords of compassion that you may
think that you have are... well... sword of compassion... today is the
same so... whatever.

I mean if you had the 'content and context' to 'theName' for all this
time then it seems to me that you should almost be able to hit the
switch any time you want... which you say..."I can hit the switch
anytime I want"... problem being you is to do this you must know where
'theSwitch' is... I do.

Faster, Faster, Faster!

Hmmm... still in the game to save my ass? Then who the hell am I riding?

Do I have more?

Here... (and yes, I have more... so much more in fact that you will have
to empty that 'full of 50 of self' and '50 of me container' so that I
can fill you once more. Advaita is that place where you are filled with
the absolutness of spirit.

A native american was standing post
when a radiant man of
a different weathered skin
approached.
"How." say the indian.
Then, cupping his hands
and unassumingly
placing them forward,
the man said "Please."
And the elder that waited
for the return of his brother
so-named Tah,
good brother of Jah,
and theChrist
embraced him 'self'
and carried him
the journey home.

If you say you posses the name of names then why do you enslave a
sleeping people? Do you fear that you may lose that name? Then who is
the name that named you?

Bring 'that' to me as God is not named.

Is there a future? No. Not until tomorrow.

Thus, to understand the 'timing of God' you must realize that God is
living 'this today' with you but he is conscious that he is in
tomorrow's dimension, or yesterdays if you prefer.

That is why this time is out of joint... do you understand that? Some
are living in tomorrow (the dead), some are living in yesterday (the
living), and the rest of us are in between... let me ask you...

Where is the power?

Poe

Doc also offered this conceptual response to Jody...

>
>Advaita

concept

>only describes

concept

>a framework

concept

>of concept

concept

>which by itself

concept

>is

concept

>utterly

concept

>meaningless.

concept

>
>--jody.

Teach me the meaning of these ObiWan with both context (concept) and
content (concept) and the various meanings of, or degrees of fullness if
you prefer, of each.

You can start with the concept of 'is'. If you can not express that do
not even worry about the others as they are further away from the path.

The mind is nondual.
(not one before the other...
just 'is')
The mind in motion is dual.
As it needs something to push off
to move creating one state 'to' another.
The start advaita, thought, think, and action.
The end effect, think, thought, and advaita.
The thing, concept, whatever is
Advaita beginning and end but not in between.
Sort of like a zillion other words
that are used to decribe the same state.
Expressionless 'negative' expression 'positive'.

=0 or 1 but not both as
both are each
but not yin
is not yang.

When is the mind not in motion?

Poe

Michael Read filed the following memorandum with the appropriate
officials:

"Jesus Poe" wrote:
Snipped: bs from previous posts>
> <click>
>
> "Read niner, read niner... this is 0:
> Pull back! Pull back! You are getting to close to real
living in a
real life
> on a real world with real people!"
>
> ...ssssss.....
>
> Shit!... off the radar!
>
> All stations, all stations, this is 0:
>
> Ground troops deploy on that signal
> before they figure out what he means.
>
> Go! Go! Go!
>

Memo on a minor skirmish
To: Vice Marshall Jesus Poe

Subject: your ground troops

I am happy to report that your ground troops are doing well. They were
surrounded by me in a single handed non-deployment.

I marched them all at bliss point over to TheWayStation. There they
remain in voluntary captivity. (I can't get them to leave!) At this time
they are partying on Veracity Vodka and eating away on the Infinity Pie.

I have had to bring in extra houris and succubi just to keep them
entertained. It's a good thing that the station is so big!

Now, if you would, please come and collect your troops. They will be
easy to find; just follow the trail of discarded gear. They may not want
to return though. Sgt. Slaughter has declared that his new name is now
Sgt. Sweetiepie!

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

Peace - don't TAH, donate it to the needy - Michael

Jody offered this to Doc:



--- In NondualitySalon@egroups.com, "Jesus Poe"
doc_hobbes@h...
wrote:

[snip]

> The mind is nondual.

No, the mind renders everything except the nondual.

> (not one before the other...
> just 'is')

> The mind in motion is dual.
> As it needs something to push off
> to move creating one state 'to' another.
> The start advaita, thought, think, and action.
> The end effect, think, thought, and advaita.
> The thing, concept, whatever is
> Advaita beginning and end but not in between.
> Sort of like a zillion other words
> that are used to decribe the same state.
> Expressionless 'negative' expression 'positive'.
>
> =0 or 1 but not both as
> both are each
> but not yin
> is not yang.
>
> When is the mind not in motion?
>
> Poe

The mind can be at motion and at rest at the same time. Where it is
resting, the Atman is self luminous. Where it is in motion, the world of
name and form appears to exist.

--jody.

Jody grounded the discussion thusly:


--- In NondualitySalon@egroups.com, "Spydir K"
spydirk@h... wrote:
> Judgment of another ?... In "Non-duality"?... now THAT
is really
> interesting... <smile>
>
> Spydir K

It's a study in my personal psychology. It's called projection. I
recognize something in someone that I haven't liked in myself, so I go
ahead and pass a judgement on the other as an attempt to rectify the
same in myself.

I suppose it's a waste of mine and the other's time. In the best case
scenerio, I find out that the other does not share the same qualities
and I find myself corrected. In the second best scenerio, the other
finds that what I've rendered about them is true, allowing them to see
past their view of themselves.

The likely outcome is neither, just two illusory individuals butting
heads.

This list exists so that individuals may discuss non-dual reality.
However, this list exists in and only in the world of name and form, and
all discussion, no matter what the subject, is by its very nature dual.

One of the things that appears to stand in the way of our experiential
understanding of nondual reality is our attachment to ourselves as
individuals. I was pointing Doc toward his, as I recognize the same in
myself. In an offhand way, we are still within the purview of this list.

--jody.

Omkara interacted with Doc again:

--- In NondualitySalon@egroups.com, "Jesus Poe"
doc_hobbes@h...
wrote:

> If you say you posses the name of names then why do you
enslave a
> sleeping people?

Nobody is sleeping, only imagining they are. But even if they were, how
can someone already enslaved be further enslaved? There is either
freedom or enslavement, nothing 'in between'.

And there is ONLY freedom. "Asleep" and "enslaved" are not in my
vocabulary or conceptabulary! Dare you impose these concepts upon a
fully awake/aware populace?!?!

> Bring 'that' to me as God is not named.

"You" already ARE "That." It cannot be brought to you, nor can you find
what you already are. Nor can you "see 'That'" anymore than you can see
your eyeballs.

> Is there a future? No. Not until tomorrow.

No, not ever. Just as a flashlight, spun quickly in a circle appears as
a ring of glowing light (but is only a flashlight), so "future" appears
but in actuality is only Now.

Tell me, tomorrow (when it arrives), where has "the future" fled? Into
yet another "tomorrow!"

> Thus, to understand the 'timing of God' you must realize
that God
> is living 'this today' with you but he is conscious that
he is in
> tomorrow's dimension, or yesterdays if you prefer.

"God" is merely a concept. And if you are referring to the 'conceptual
Absolute' (Brahman), God is not conscious at all, let alone conscious
"of" anything. It will not do to play too casually with such ideas as
"consciousness" and "awareness..." especially given that they have no
meaning except as concepts.

> Where is the power?

With the politicians, where it always is.

Love,
Omk.

and thusly:

-- In NondualitySalon@egroups.com, "Jesus Poe" doc_hobbes@h...
wrote:

> Please... take your time for your time is all you have.

More accurately, time is all "he" IS. And all "you" are.

> When my words hit the ground White Wolfe you had better
be
> displaced if you know what I mean. They are sneaking up
on you as
> we speak.

Words are combinations of letters, nothing more. They have only the
meaning the reader (!!NOT THE WRITER!!) gives them. Thus, your warning
lacks teeth.

Will you "gum" White Wolfe to death with your empty symbologies? Did the
kindergarten teacher, when teaching "ABC's," pose a threat?

Those who know, don't speak... those who speak, don't know.

Those who ARE, *LOVE*!

Love,
Omk

(Ed note: When I first started reading this, the Ooo Oooo made me think
that I had posted something and then forgotten about it. I'm glad there
is someone else on the list that expresses themself so eloquently.
Ooooooh, Ooooooh! I'm also glad for the non-contentious post.)

Paul: Ooo Oooo
I have a question,

Anyone?

In Buddhism they mention 5 aggregates. Thoughts, Feelings, Mental
formations, consciousness, form. Which of these fits the more constant
feeling of a thinker. Even though I thought I had a slight insight that
this too was a thought. But how & why more constant? Or is this the I
am everyone is speaking about. That might fall under the aggregate
consciousness.

Funny how one seems more internal than the other. Wow Makes me think of
some sort of layer system with the senses and the phenomena it
perceives being on the very outer layer.

Paul

Gloria appreciated the post too:

Dear Paul,

Aaah, an excuse to talk Buddhism, thank you.
While all 5 together represent body/mind, form is the body and
consciousness is faculty of awareness, along with the other 3 being
mental conceptions, or functions of the mind. The lists sometimes vary a
bit. Have seen form, feeling, conception, impulse, and conscousness. In
another, all elements of the phenomenal world are given as matter,
perception, mental conceptions (ideas), volition, and consciousness
(mind). Each of these is temporary, as is the coming together of them,
so ultimate reality is empty. While there is an "only mind exists"
(yogacara) school of Buddhism, most schools allow that conventional
reality of material phenomena need not be denied. The mind is drawn out
by the senses to objects, so meditation on emptiness is meant to be more
than an intellectual understanding, its a raft to a change in awareness.

You would have a lot of company with affirming that the "thinker" as a
self or identity, is actually only a thought or concept, like a product
of memory and conditioning. Buddhists would say it lacks inherent
identity as it has no permanence. So there is no thinker as a separate
self, only thinking is happening. I Am is being, existence itself,
without qualities..not this or that... presence... poetry expresses this
better than intellectual ideas, silence best of all.

You might enjoy to read Nisargadatta Song of I am on the NDS website.

http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/umbada/iam.htm

Welcome and glad you joined, I have been enjoying your posts.

Love,
Gloria

White Wolf offered this poem:

Who is the Lord of the Dance?

(For Father Patrick Collins)

...dance, dance, wherever you may be,

I am the lord of the dance says he...

-Shaker Hymm



oh, my brothers and sisters

and kindred souls who are my friends

and especially you, those who call me your enemy



the sun arises again today

the snow is a blistering white canopy

with diamonds refracting light into the trackless blue



and white wolfe, a wild and mad dog

capers in the innocence of the fresh
powder

with the new pups that our mother sent him last night



close your eyes and see me

come play with us in the crystals of
light

dance, dance and as you have never danced before



do you see me yet, an old fool in love

soon to be an ageless old wise one
sitting

and smiling because his heart is full of the beloved



open your mouth now and join me

come join the chorus of my infant cherubs

sing, sing as you have never sung before or will again



do you hear us now, we are you dull one

it is you who are destined to be an old
wise one

embrace you sorrow and transcend it by allowing love to
arise



join with me now who is still and young at heart

I am the golden eagle that descends upon
white wings

And remains hidden within your mystic mind and sacred
heart



Join me, join them, become one with us

Dance the dancing, sing the singing of
joy

And you will find yourself laughing because you are happy




Laughing because you are once again

A newborn puppy playing in the snowy
garden of love

And your noble heart knows that all manner of things are
beautiful!



I am your lord and the leader of the sacred pack

And this is my only commandment to you my creatures

Dance, Sing, Laugh and enjoy my play and never stop
celebrating



My party has no beginning, no end and therefore no middle

You are my game and I am the prey you seek

You are the Lord of the Dance, dance wherever you may be&




Mark Christopher Valentine

Sunday, January 14, 2001

uarelove offered this invitation:

You are invited to join a new e group called Advaita Bodha Deepika.
(The Lamp of Non-dual Knowledge) If you would like to receive the
Teachings of the Advaita Bodha Deepika in your email click:

http://www.egroups.com/group/AdvaitaBodhaDeepika

then look upper left and click subscribe.

The Teachings will be presented with no commentary. The book Advaita
Bodha Deepika is one of the few books esteemed by Sri Ramana Maharshi.
Sri Ramana Maharshi often quoted from the Advaita Bodha Deepika. This
English Translation was thoroughly revised in the presence of Sri
Ramana Maharshi. The Advaita Bodha Deepika may well be the clearest,
easiest to understand summary of the Teachings of Advaita Vedanta ever
written. The book is written in the form of a dialogue between Master
and disciple. The disciple doubts almost everything the Master is
telling him. Therefore, the doubts that most people have, from those
who are just beginning to study Advaita, (Non-duality) to those who have
have been studying it for a long time, are cleared up in this book.

The eight chapters are:

1. Super-imposition (Adhyaropa)

2. Its removal. (Apavada)

3. The means of accomplishment (Sadhana)

4. Hearing the Teachings (Sravana)

5. Reflecting on the Teachings(Manana)

6. Annihilation of latencies. (Vasanaksaya)

7. Direct Realization (Sakshatkara)

8. Extinction of the Mind (Manolaya)

Step by step right to the extinction of the Mind. This book makes
lofty and difficult points clear and easy to understand. If you
would like to receive the Teachings of The Avaita Bodha Deepika in
your e mail click:

http://www.egroups.com/group/AdvaitaBodhaDeepika

then look upper left and click subscribe.

If you have any difficulty in subscribing send an e mail
toArunachala3@yahoo.com saying subscribe me to the Advaita Bodha Deepika
group and include the email address you would like subscribed.

May you discover in direct experience the Eternal within you.

With Love,
uarelove

Finally, Terry continued the recent discussion of the movie The Matrix:

Subject: Agree or Disagree? From: "K R" kcr_40@h...

For the movie The Matrix, do you agree/disagree and what are your
thoughts that The Matrix was intended to be an allegory to the level of
control exerted on Americans by the media?

gill said:

The only way to know for sure what it was intended to be would be to ask
the wachowski brothers. That said, it seems a rather narrow view. To me
it seemed an allegory to the level of control exerted on the minds of
most of humanity (not just Americans) by a few 'men in suits'. The
media, governments, business magnates; those who crave what they view as
'control', and have a vested interest in keeping that control.

Paradoxically, it is those people who are most in need of 'freeing their
minds', those who are chasing ever more after 'power' which they think
will bring them freedom and happiness, and which is ultimately like
digging yourself deeper and deeper into a hole, with less and less
chance of escape. I found it very poignant, and I can't recall anybody
mentioning this before, when the agent told morpheus he was desperate to
escape, that if he could just do this one thing he would be free. Sound
familiar?

terry:

I saw the allegory as being much greater than simply media control. Note
the numerous reference to Lewis Carroll: was he simply talking about
media control? 'How deep does the rabbit hole go?' Morpheus was a
Buddha (awakened one); that 'morpheus' refers to sleep/death shows how
topsy turvy the phenomenal world is from Reality, as jesus points out,
those who seek to save their lives lose them, and those who lose them
preserve them, while he himself lived that nondual view as a martyr.

The 'matrix' itself is Maya, the world-illusion, the construct that each
individual creates and imagines that they live 'in.' The
'illusion-dwellers' for the most part are not ready to be 'unplugged,'
but morpheus/buddha and his crew/disciples were prepared to awaken those
individuals who could be awakened, with the ultimate aim of awakening
all sentient beings. 'Neo' was 'the One,' the ordinary you and me
sitting at our computer consoles seeking 'the truth' about the
matrix/maya. When 'neo' was prepared, by the oracle/insight, to
sacrifice his individual life to save the buddha/morpheus, then he
became the One/an enlightened being/bodhisattva. The buddha/avatar was
always searching for a being he could turn into a bodhisattva, and was
trying to free people from the world illusion (the truth: there is no
spoon/there are no things). Neo simply wanted answers, but morpheus'
sole aim was to turn a neos into Ones. The 'suits' were machines/mental
constructs/ego, whose primary function in being was to remain in
control, and utilize 'life' as a power source for machine functioning.
They would be happy to create a 'perfect world'/happy world illusion but
life 'wouldn't accept the programming,' because as 'some said,' they
'didn't have the programming *language* to describe such a world'
(language is inherently dualistic and happiness can only be described by
referring to unhappiness) or because humans 'defined their lives by
misery' (dualism is inherent in the development of life). You are
right that the suits/ego always think they can make some sort of
progress, accomplish one more thing and be done with this 'stink,' this
world that they 'hate' and 'can't stand'; the suits had to unplug from
each other even to admit that much. The suits had more raw physical
power than real people within the matrix, but they were inherently
limited by the rules of the matrix, while neo, being potentially the
One, was not limited at all by the rules of the matrix, once he realized
the truth ('physical strength' means nothing 'in this place').

So I saw the allegory as one of *any* ordinary individual finding
enlightenment with the help of the wise and accumulated human spiritual
culture and spiritual friends (the triple gem: buddha, dharma, sangha).

Great movie...

aloha, terry

So, let me chime in here and say,
aloha, Mark

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