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Saturday, October 7


JAN:

There is one Sadhana that was taught at the foundation of mankind,
sometimes referred to as "ancient path". It is for those, who are
disappointed in what life has to offer, who are not satisfied with it,
having been through all the pleasures and pain "on offer", but not
having found any lasting satisfaction.

To them, it was taught there is a "third" option apart from the
endless repetition of 1. enjoying and 2. suffering: the realization
that both are two sides of the same coin and there is no "escape" from
that, like by going after one side while avoiding the other. Instead,
both sides have to be abandoned, that is, have to be given up. Without
partaking in the "current of like and dislike", remaining passive to
them, was called something like "the sour apple" - a kind of nowhere
land of nothingness, where the real nature isn't know and the familiar
tracks of pleasure and pain have been abandoned.

Under these conditions (or better stated, the progressing absence of
former conditions), sooner or later the real nature will be recognized
and one will be utterly baffled how this simple, self-evident beauty
could have been overlooked. And contrary to other paths, there won't
be the least doubt about "what next" as the "sour apple" all of a
sudden has become one of of ultimate sweetness, to be "consumed" with
joy - a joy that "isn't from this earth"...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SANDEEP & ANDREW:

Sandeep:

Ramana maintained that as an entity, you had no other volition except
the volition to turn inwards.
This volition, you had, whether to pursue a Million dollars or pursue
Truth (or whatever).


I question even this iota of volition.

What turns a perfectly happy, adjusted, making pots of money, having
spouse/children respected member of society etc etc turn into a
miserable seeker?

(And if one was misfit, a failure in the material world and is now
seeking spirituality, by convincing oneself that all that materialism
was
all Maya anyway, well that's just an escape, not seeking.)

To me, this offer of that iota of volition was just Ramana's
compassion,
seeing the misery of the seeker wanting to do, something, anything.

The seeker could not just BE, letting whatever is happening, to
happen
and needs a "consolation" that it can at least do something.


Andrew:

Similarly the concept that there is no volition, that there is nothing
the seeker can
do, logically unassailable as it may be, can be seen as a consolation
offered out of
compassion. No need to struggle for a better future or to worry about
how one may have
messed up in the past, its all happening as it must happen so relax
and enjoy the
movie. There is great consolation in this way of thinking...but...it's
just another
way of thinking presented by another compassionate individual. I feel
driven
(choicelessly no doubt :) to throw it away too like every prior
concept and admit not
knowing.


Sandeep:

I offer you another concept<s>

Real freedom is the freedom from the burden of free will.

How's that, as they say in the game of cricket.


Andrew:

How could something that doesn't exist ever have been a burden?


Sandeep:

In the apperception of non-volitionality, the realization is that
there is
none to affirm or negate.
Or, if either affirmation or negation arise, both are not the
"me-entity's"
doing.

Now you may well ask who is to realize this?

It is the ego (which is only the sense of identification with a
particular
biological computer and this may or may not continue, after
"awakening")
which realizes that there is no sense of "me-entity" any more.


Where is the possibility of a burden now?
Where is the "me-entity" left to experience the sense of burden?

Now if Andrew if all this are no issues for you, fine, carry on your
merry
ways<s>


Andrew:
Curses to this accursed recursiveness.

Real freedom is open ignorance, not-knowing.


Sandeep:

Real freedom is knowing that all knowing and not-knowing , all
ignorance/non-ignorance, all are relevant only in a phenomenal
context.

Both knowing and ignorance have no relevance without the phenomenal
context.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DAN:

Awareness (which is not-a-thing)
defines itself, so can make itself
appear to itself to have gradations or
different densities.

Because Awareness resists itself to formulate
densities (including this world
we call earth, and these bodies),
these differences are always "apparent only"
and dependent on the point of view of
perception.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MARCIA:

I went through the 'phase' of reading Bradshaw and Healing the
Shame that Binds You and looking at body shame and the sense
of how flawed I was. I got a shocker when I had this instantaneous
glimpse of 'myself' in action. It was when I had three kids, very
stressful job, husband was going through mid-life crisis, and my
mother became very ill and needed me emotionally and physically
for hours everyday. On top of that my dad was entering middle
stages Alzheimer's and I had him too. I felt like I was pushing a
ton of boulders uphill but I refused to open and feel pain and
whatever. I was too proud. Then one moment I saw that I was
making this all about 'me'. I, I, I, I, I, was doing all this. I, I,
I, I

was shouldering all this. I had more suffering than all the rest of
the people on the planet. I was making my mother's death about
me. I was making my husband's mid-life crisis about me. It feels the
same to me as making the death of six million Jews about the
German race. I let go of it for a second. Then I could really 'be'
with my mother. She was okay. We did it together. With me
by her side, she was okay.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MARCIA responds to this thought:

> "Everyone in the world is awake but you."

Is this the same as...."When you wake up, the whole
world wakes us?"

I don't know how this could be true, but it seems true.

At lunch yesterday with three friends, two males and
a female, I kept trying to connect with my male friend.
His response was to solve my problem.

example......

Me: "I really like kittens. They are so sensitive in
a way really different than dogs. Blah, blah, blah....."

Him: "Blah, blah, blah...Maybe you should get a part
time job in an animal shelter....blah, blah, blah."

Me: "Blah, blah, blah..."

Him: "Blah, blah, blah...Maybe you should...."

Me: "Stop trying to solve my problem. The only problem
I have is you trying to solve my problem. I am trying to
connect with you." (At this point he asks me to take the
other end of the chopstick and he says that now we are
connected.)

Him: "You mean I am the problem?" <s> At this point the
other female says that maybe it is him who wants a job
in an animal shelter. After much laughter, he says that
he finally understood something about male/female
communication. He is 54 years old.


GREG responds:

You're right, that is really a guy-thing, "Let me give you some
advice, fix
you up. You shouuld do blah-blah."
Have you read any books by (I think) Deborah Tannen about the
different
ways that men and women tend to use language? Even John Gray talks
about
that in his Mars & Venus books.

I really like John Gray's books about dating and Mars and Venus. They
work
well. In fact, they work so well that when I (a man, Mars) was going
with
a transsexual (theortecally a Venus), she had a more masculine
personality
than I. So I *reversed* the advice in John Gray's book and took the
feminine side for myself, and treated her as the masculine side. Made
things go a lot smoother!!

Connection through holding... Er, was that an already-used chopstick?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

POU and GENE:

Pou:

.....if we look
closely I believe, we'll actually see that it is shame
itself that is one of the initiating factors that we begin
the search for the self.



Gene:
Shame, if you think of it, acts as an inhibitor. It can put the
brakes on all movement, even stopping life-processes. Many many
people have died from shame.

Shame stops the very processes which would stop shame; perhaps we
could say, that each person is a 'shame-flower', whose maturity is
reached only when those petals finally fully open, then drop off, in
the autumn of life.

Pou, it is natural to have shame, and wounding does occur. Not only
is nobody immune, but inevitably, it occurs for everyone as a major
life theme. I am gratified that finally, there is public talk of this.

Shame occurs for one simple reason (so I say!); it is realization. To
resist realization, is to invite shame to fill completely, the entire
range of experience of awareness. I say this shamelessly.


Pou:
Or of the metaphor the search
itself begins with the axe blow from the father. I do not
know if it is important to you or not Gene because I
undertand what you have written in previous posts, but you
yourself live in this so-called awake state. And by awake
state I mean where a dramatic shift of attention has
removed itself from the fixated identification from the
content to the context. Now for many, this now sets itself
up as the new spiritual prison.


Gene:
I am not afraid to look up, to see my father. I see in this, the way
out of any prison. I have seen his face, and it has made me 'mad',
insane. Behind the axe, there is love. I can say this, but very few
can know what I am meaning, when I say it.

Many years ago, I heard the voice of my father, in the train-horns of
a far-away, passing diesel locomotive. At that time, everything
disappeared, because I actually heard it, and that was all that I
heard, nothing more. My hair was standing on end. I thought I was
going crazy. Now I hear this voice much of the time, it is a singing,
a chorus, something far beyond Wagner, a theme indescribable by me in
this moment. But it is here. I have noticed that if someone hears it,
it can be a shattering experience. Deep grief and tears often occur,
I have observed.


Pou:
The way that I see it at
the present time, it is like walking into an empty room
that contains no objects and of course one is aware of
emptiness, of space, of availability, of potential as well
as a whole assortment of other possibilities when there is
the possibility in the consideration of space. But if one
is to bring objects such as furniture, etc. into this
space then of course we're aware that in a sense it
doesn't change the space itself. But what it does open up
for the individual is new possibilites where one can
direct attention within space and the ability to direct
attention consciously is what I feel personally is the
beginning steps in learning how to walk in the enlightened
state.


Gene:
Yes. And I abide in this, with myself and others. I know that time
can lead to maturity. I advise patience, with oneself and others in
this matter. It does no-one any good to demand perfect furnishings
from the onset. Such idiotic insistence on immediate perfection is
part of a hidden 'racket' which allows the supremacy of tyrants. If
this could be seen in the context of human spiritual strivings, there
would be an immediate 'blowing-off' of most 'teachers'. To make
someone feel wrong, is to also make them desire to feel right; this
is the entire hidden agenda behind most advertising. heaven help us
if this ever comes to light; people will be very angry, and in that
anger, will vow never to become suckers for that manipulation again.


Pou:
I also personally feel it is unconscious defended
by incredible arrogance, hurt, misunderstanding and deep
seated confusion to not be aware that there could be the
possibility where attention could become fixated ie, one
believing that they have fully totally with full awareness
and full consciousness believe they have grasped advaita
in its totality.

Gene:
I have never heard anyone make that claim, but I have read and heard
many who act as though it is so, for them, in relation to others.
This is the racket that I describe above. This racket, guarantees
that such 'teachers' will do anything to prevent eyes from actually
opening. If eyes open, heads may roll. I think you know what I am
talking about.

<snip>

Gene:
Here is how I see it: Like the sand-paintings of Vajrayana, or like a
blackboard in a classroom.

Not, like the eternal sculpture of Rodin. It is for me, by design,
disposable. This whole thing can vanish in an unexpected instant.
What is offered is learning about the suffering of attachment, not
the building of perfection, and the immersion of that perfection in a
preserving-vat of formalin. Behind and also beyond this moment of
sharing, is my own relationship with myself.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

FRANZ:

the "one" experiencing silence - this is the "one".................

as i saw and see
it ,
am i ,
without wanting it,( at least as i am aware of ),
terrified of really getting lost in God or consciousness...
even though, it seems to be my greatest longing -
to merge-

once i saw also, that this mere fact of this "me" longing for God,
is already or, maybe better has become , The obstacle, for
this "merging", or disappearing of this "i", or this "undermining of
who i think i am",...

so i try to keep my heart on fire -
sometimes feeling guilty not to "put enough and all fuel in it, to
burn "me" all ...( Poonjaji)

still feeling incredible thankful and lucky to be able to write like
this, and to know the - Seat of Silence

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LARRY & GREG:

Larry:
I agree with your point about why stop with "no doer" but I think it
is
quite effective wherever it meets resistance. Sobottka equates the
practice of "no doer" inquiry to surrender in Ramana's two "only way"
paths , self inquiry or surrender to
the deity.

Greg:
The doership inquiry is a marvelous tool! In fact, sometimes it can
result
in the dissolution of the entire notion of entitification (both "here"
and
"there.") It is even a more effective tool for people who have strong
issues or identification with control, resentment, guilt, etc.

I don't recall Sobottka's discussion on nondoership and Ramana on that
particular topic, but I do agree with him halfway on it. That is,
Ramana's
two "only way" paths encompass non-doership, but not vice versa.

That is, if one pursues deep inquiry, then one will discover that one
is
not the doer. One will also discover many other things that one is
not.
Such as, one will discover that one is not the receiver, or the locus
of
sensation, or a point through which consciousness flows, or separate
from
any object whatsoever. But *merely* pursuing non-doership does not
entail
the same thing.

Similarly for surrender to the deity. Total surrender wipes away any
sense
of independent doership! But it also yields total love. But the mere
absence of the sense of doership needn't bring on total love. This is
one
of the reasons that Wayne and Ramesh *also* talk about the resonance
between disciple and guru...

I know some people who have followed just the non-doership teaching
for
several years, and some of them feel miserable and stuck in having to
cope
with the arisings in consciousness that they know there is no
responsibility for....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

XAN:

When attention shifts away from the form expressions and
back into awareness itself one is free and therefore able
to give freedom.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

XAN:

I was just reading about the his Fear-No-More Zoo.
Let the animals show them!!!

http://zoo.adidam.org/Leelas/home.htm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JIVANO:

For some years by now Mikaire is using shame
in his Satsangs - often, like Pou, in it's
"common denominator" like the shame of our
fathers and ancestors.

This technique is called "abstraction" or
"rationalization" and it breaks down to avoidance
of the situation HERE and NOW. This tendency
is supported at large by Mikaire and in
his Sangha.

Consequently the feelings are less and less
lived on a personal level, instead of expressing
their own feelings the Satsang-participants
are lead into "talking about" instead of
directly sharing their personal emotions and
insights. I happen to know some former and
current members of Mikaires Sangha personally
and can observe the results of this technique
directly.

On top of the normal layers of resistances,
on top of the normal ego-defenses, additional
layers are created. The personal feelings are
no longer expressed in a natural way, any
intimate talks are again and again bent into
talks which use great words - like "collective
shame" to avoid the personal references to
oneself. Instead of using spirituality to
discover one's own hidden agenda, it is used
to build layer upon layer of spiritual talk
on top of the "normal neurotic" personality
(created in our society from early childhood).

On top of the "normal ego" another "spiritual ego"
is created. A spiritual personality, which is
all too happy to talk about feelings to avoid
one's own. A spiritual personality, which is
even proud about "working" on it's own improvement.

Don't we have enough personal shame to look at?
Isn't it shamefull enough, how we use spirituality
to decorate our ego, instead of being ready to
have it reduced?

Many members of the Sangha (and this may as well
include the majority of the NonDualitySalon as
far as I know) have been in contact with teachers
and Masters (from Bhagwan to Alan Lowen, from
Barnett to Satyam Nadeen, from Miracle of Love to
who-knows-what-else) with all their ego-friendly
environments. Having our ego fattened until the
doctor (or death) comes.

Using our spiritual names to boast about "our"
master. Running around in red and silly outfit,
so that everybody could see how holy we are.
Speaking about meditation, enlightenment and now
about advaita so that everybody should recognize
our great improvements, our infallible
accomplishments, awareness and enlightenment.
Names changes - in the 1970s it was "in" to use
the words "enlightenment" and "meditation",
now it's "nonduality", - the individuals remain
as they are, greedy and envy, jealous and ambitious.
Only instead of being greedy for money we are
now greedy for "realization". Instead of being
proud about a new car we are now happy to share
our learned "nonduality" concepts.

No transformation, just an additional layer of
ego-gratifying words. Instead of becoming naked
we put on more masks - spiritual masks.
Instead of reality, the day-to-day reality of
our everyday life as it is, we've chosen
SPIRITUALITY.

The results can be seen directly in any Satsang
- be it an actual Satsang or this email list.



Enough shame to look at?

Shame comes when a personal, unwanted truth
is uncovered.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JAN & DAN:

Jan:
Moral baggage is one of the means to exert "power over people" and
keep them ignorant of the real nature,
whereas unconditional learning ability results in what jokingly could
be called "self-organizing anarchy",
in the sense of absence of any form of political authority.
Something that throughout history has been seen and acted upon as
"ultimate threat".


Dan:
Wonder if when Jesus said "the meek shall
inherit the earth" this could be translated
as "those who are able to learn unconditionally
shall inherit the earth"? Of course, he
also recommended being willing to lose the
world for the sake of one's soul, which may
well be another aspect of "unconditional learning".


Jan:
I agree, in the Dutch translation it reads like "losing one's life to
gain Life" and a more concise summary of unconditional surrender
cannot be made.. The meek, inheriting the earth has been prevented in
the middle ages, when the Cathars and Albigenses were exterminated. In
this era, such a policy won't be possible and when it becomes clear
that contrary to what has become custom in some cultures, "the quest"
is far easier for youths than for those of "grandfather age", the meek
will be seen to inherit the earth :) Knowledge never was lost - in
Rosicrucian circles, one is quite aware that the greatest gift for a
newly born is to be born into a family of *knowers*.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MICHAEL:
Hey everybody!
I have a small question to pose.

Why?

Why does anything exist at all!?!?

You know, it's such a small question.

Probably not important that it be answered...

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

Peace - walk in beauty - Michael

ps Be careful if you choose to answer that one. :-)
It was posed by the 4,000,000 year old entity. ;-))


GREG:
That's another one of those two-part questions like "Have you stopped
taking cocaine yet?" That is, it first has to be estalished that
anything
exists...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MICHAEL:

For me there are no more questions. Who is who, why is why and
all is one. Who is asking. Who gives a shit.
Why are there so many layers.

There only is. Whatever drama comes into this little dream is
wonderful and welcome. Be it extreme bliss or extreme pain.

If this helps, fine. If this is utter nonsense, fine. The game was
being played long before any of us appeared. It will be playing long
after we cease to appear.

From the vastness of conciousness and bliss
We are all formed to appear in this dream
Where one sees beauty, joy and life
Another sees starkness, fear and death

Again, why?
Like a child
I answer - because! So there!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BOB ROSE quotes Kir Li Molari:


The veil of illusion is torn asunder
and the beauty, love, and wisdom of
reality is realized. As the moment
occurs, the mind says its final
farewell with statements like
"Oh my God!" and "Thank you God!"
Then, the freeing realization that
One is talking to OneSelf. And the
blissful silence sounds internally,
infinitely, eternally.

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