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September 22, 2000



(Note: Apologies for length, but considering the sheer number of posts, this is
a small selection. Gloria)


JUTTA

And: not every german looks so deep into him/herself, truthfully!
I was not aware of this collective wound inside of my personality. It
came to the light through work in consciousness!

I thought, I managed it already through my therapy processes and
mediation and intelectual understanding. But believe me, Melody, it
seems like this that the more I am honest to myself, deeper layer
open up. It seem to be an ongoing process of looking inside and
coming along another depth the more I allow myself to feel the bliss
on the other hand, the wounded part opens up also. And I reach more
and more collective levels. "I" cannot say anymore: "I" don´t have
it. As long as people share it it is "ME" having it.

So I thought in enlightenment the wounds will be gone and healed just
like this. But I discover more and more that it needs my conscious
work with it. My conscious appreciation to everything in life. Just a
general "knowing, that all is IT, there is no seperation in the non
speakable space" at least for me, was not helpful....

So we are all blessed when we create a space of intimacy here in NDS
where people share more authentically out of a deeper level........

So trust your experience you had with germans. And there is always a
deeper layer to it, or the other side of the coin as long as we live
in the world of duality even when we are in a state of nonduality,
we move in the world of maya or called the phenomenal world.


And this is, what I get, is often the question which arise here:

How to live the enlightenment in responsibility concerning the
phenomenal world????? Not rationalizing, not denying, not profaning
it.


morning greetings to you


love Jutta H.M.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JIVANO

Hi Michele,

I agree with you, that we often see a lot of
mind-masturbation, as you called it.
I can't say anything about this list,
as I just entered, but I saw much of
it in other so called spiritual contexts.

AND there way to approach humaneness
even with the mind.

Not everybody can just relax and give in to ones
own heart - I for example cannot. And it's simple:
I cannot. Male minds (and many women have them too
nowadays) need to be fought down, they cannot
surrender.

That is not a fault, that is just as we are.

That's why there is this San-Zen in the traditional
Zen, the private meeting between teacher and disciple,
in which the disciple's mind is wrestled down to
his knees. And I think these talks are private so that
the other disciples cannot hear all the contradicting
and repeating nonsense which is talked by the teacher
to accomplish that. .o)

If in the end there is no heart, then everything
was just what you called it. But if this way
is gone consequently, the heart is bound to
be there, sooner or later. And this heart
does not need to weave flowers into the hair
- too difficult with these baldheads anyway :).
This love cannot be heard in soft words,
cannot be seen in tender gestures, but it can be
felt in the Zen-hit (verbal or physical),
if one feels with a clean heart.



Just to share a different way.

Greetings
Jivano
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MORE JIVANO

Hi Michele,

I agree with you, that we often see a lot of
mind-masturbation, as you called it.
I can't say anything about this list,
as I just entered, but I saw much of
it in other so called spiritual contexts.

AND there way to approach humaneness
even with the mind.

Not everybody can just relax and give in to ones
own heart - I for example cannot. And it's simple:
I cannot. Male minds (and many women have them too
nowadays) need to be fought down, they cannot
surrender.

That is not a fault, that is just as we are.

That's why there is this San-Zen in the traditional
Zen, the private meeting between teacher and disciple,
in which the disciple's mind is wrestled down to
his knees. And I think these talks are private so that
the other disciples cannot hear all the contradicting
and repeating nonsense which is talked by the teacher
to accomplish that. .o)

If in the end there is no heart, then everything
was just what you called it. But if this way
is gone consequently, the heart is bound to
be there, sooner or later. And this heart
does not need to weave flowers into the hair
- too difficult with these baldheads anyway :).
This love cannot be heard in soft words,
cannot be seen in tender gestures, but it can be
felt in the Zen-hit (verbal or physical),
if one feels with a clean heart.

Just to share a different way.

Greetings
Jivano
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Experience is the comb that Nature gives us when we are bald.
~ Belgian Proverb

Holy Mother of the Microcosmic Orbit!!! This is sudden illumination!! My
Elvis piece will be donated to charity. This is profound, am overwhelmed.
John
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I understand from friends who are involved with Adi Da, and from
> others who were physically close to Osho, that far from being charlatans,
> they are ( or in the case of Osho, were), such ruthless mirrors.
> love,
> Betty

Yes, I agree. Through their books -- I've never met them --
Adi Da and Rajneesh gave the greatest pushes toward
understanding things. They're artists, in a way. I believe
Nora said that. I always looked at Rajneesh's Rolls Royces
as a work of art, a statement. If Rajneesh were only an
artist and nothing else, and had invested in all those Rolls
Royces, all the phonies of the art world would be oohing and
aahing about how brilliant he was. Instead he's branded as
crazy and dangerous. Why? Because he showed what freedom is.
It's a funny world, isn't it? where we prefer to violate
probation so that we'll end up in the comfort of prison.
Rajneesh/Osho did all he could to show that he himself was
that prison. But a bunch of people are still locked up in
it.

Jerry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ED ARRONS


The speed of light?

where is it going with no place to go?

Known by its speed, what can it be if it doesn't move?

Light...just another illusion.

Lights out!

Nothing to see anyway. :-)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DAN BERKOW


As seen here,
there is a time for
discarding ruthless mirrors.

This is when it is time to leave
mirrors behind.

Now is *really* seeing/being
beyond life and death.

No mirror can possibly "do this"
for "me".

There is the possibility
to be addicted, attached,
or defined by reliance
on any "mirror".

Now, no "mirror" is more wonderful
or useful than any other. It
is now to discard all reflections,
simply *be* beyond birth and death.

Adoration of my mirror is
my identification with
what is reflected.

When no-thing, literally and
figuratively, is reflected,
all reflections are equal.
All mirrors equally are mirroring
simply other reflections.

It's an endless hall of mirrors.

If I can see through all mirrors,
I will see/be That which
is beyond being reflected.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am with you to the end
of time and beyond.

I am with you where to be
born is to die, and where
to die is to be born.

I am with you where timeless
nowness is beyond experience.

Here, where there is no me or
you, where "with" is empty,
where bodies are fantasy
images, I enfold all of space/time
in one point that I keep in
a secret place for you alone.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes, indeed.

Of what is unsaid,
silence alone speaks.

Before - silence.
After - silence.
Between before and
after - only openness.

No before, no after...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dear Lalla,
Since you don't mention anything from
my letter, I don't know what you're
talking about when you say "for example
the way you argued in your letter".

I don't see that I was arguing for anything
except to "be with" boredom, look into
it, and don't be satisfied with having
explanations.

If you think you understand Nonduality,
then you don't.

The quotes you give me that supposedly say
what Nonduality is, don't.

That's what I mean by looking beyond explanations.

I don't know if you've observed this, but
people have been trying to "fix" the world
for centuries. And look at the mess it's in.

Everyone has an answer, everyone cares deeply,
everyone wants to fix everyone else.

And look at the results!

Until I am the universe, all my
attempts to fix it will backfire.

My compassion malfunctions unless and
until I realize that it is only "who I
am" that compassion is about, from,
and for.

As I am the world, compassion is
simply *being* expressed in day
to day life.

Feeling no compassion is separation,
yet only if compassion flows effortlessly
as "what is" is it useful.

Often, the most compassionate thing to do
is relax, let be.

So much effort, so many "me's" fixing
what is wrong with so many "you's" and
"me's" -- and look at us!

Like a frantic jumping of fleas on a griddle,
reproducing more and more fleas so as to
continue the jumping on more and more
griddles.

What is compassionate is to entirely
see what it is that "makes" a jumping
flea on a griddle.

It starts right here, with "me".

Trying to fix the world out there
when I haven't fixed "me" is
absurdity.

Love,
Dan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
SURU

Dear Dan,

I am the beginning and the end.
I am the tranc end I transcend that 2.

I AM 1.

In love

Suru

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hallo Bruce and all,

It is definitely a good ride or a float or a spin.
Incredible to watch the swing.

Like you are all my family , and I go through all the feelings and I don't
even know most of you. Then I arrive back to ME, to HERE, and all I can say
is it is all needed to remind me who I am again and again and for that I am
grateful to you all and myself and the mover behind all moves.
Which is one and the same from this state.


In vulnerability there is great strength.
In helplessness is help.
In frustration there is rest.
And in every feeling there is bliss.


Love to all.

Suru.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

GENE POOLE

I'm just wondering how an eternal being might pull that one off? We
>might say that 100 years is a timeless illusion.
>
>Yours in breathless breathing,
>
>Ed

Your point is well taken; I agree, it would be something to accomplish.

Grace (if you will allow my lumping a lot of things together and
calling it 'Grace' for the sake of convenience) gives the greatest
gift, the value of life, the value of being alive. This is the gift
of mortality. I perceive that for the inexperienced, death is a
threat, a goad to keep the naive 'in line', the ever-present
possibility of extinction, the fear of loss of the favorite 'me'.

On the other hand, mortality is not a threat to the experienced. It
may be seen by some, as the promise of what... according to one's own
vision, perhaps migration to a plane in which we can 'finally get
down to it', to use the skills learned 'here' in this life, a
refinement of our ways, or maybe just a well-deserved rest.

(It has been hinted that there are open positions in Universe Admin.)

In any event, the life/death conundrum may be seen either way (or
perhaps even more ways); a fearful end, or the opening of unforeseen
possibilities. I know that there are those among us who are content
to have their allotment of life, then to simply blink out of
existence, without regret or complaint.

Timeless Being, boundless Being, is ours. And it feels really, really good.

Thanks, Ed...

==Gene Poole==

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MORE GENE

>Perhaps the guilt and shame of being a German is easier to tolerate
>than the present problems of greed, envy, lonesomness, yealousy,
>...? But in that case it would even be the bigger chance to get
>healed to look there IMO.
>
>
>Greetings
>Jivano


Finally, someone has said it.

Your letter, Victor, has stimulated certain thoughts, which I now share.

I am simply 'a Being', and any baggage I carry is by my own choice.
Yes, I have 'historical' memories and feelings. Here is what I have
observed, later in my adult life;

If I find myself standing in the shadow of a Hitler, Stalin, or
Nixon, I have the choice of what to do. As a simple Being, I may
afford to simply shine the light of my Being in the shadow of that
darkness. I observe that 'if everyone' would do that simple thing,
that no matter the darkness of the shadow, our light will pervade,
and the shadow is harmless to all. That is, if 'everyone' does it,
and always.

If I can do something 'practical' to help the situation, it may be my
choice to do that, even if it means to put myself in the way of harm
or even death. If 'everyone' would do that, evil would not have the
opportunity to grow.

But these are my own ideals I spout here, and I am aware that
'everyone' has their own experience of all of this. I do not desire
to broadcast an overweening, commanding priority, to make others
adhere to the ideals which seem to me to be 'correct'. But I will, if
the need arises, actually hold to my own ideals. And this is the
point; do my own ideals emanate from an outside 'source', are my
ideals (my inner guiding impulses) derived from a living or dead
'external authority', or are they simply mine? Individual choice
(even in the face of the various spiritual/philosophical arguments on
the topic of 'free will') is possible. I deeply examine my own
motives, to see how those motives became mine.

If I find within myself, some dangerous or covertly malevolent,
manipulative control impulses, to disadvantage others (even if for a
'higher good'.... yeah, right!), I pull such things out, by the roots.

I am 'a simple Being', and whatever is going on with me, is mine to
deal with. I do not need to project my concerns into a
proto-historical database, to find justification or reason to live or
act. I am simply what I am.

If others find in my words or presence, some motive to act, this
raises many questions. Why would this happen? Am I responsible in any
way at all, for the way that others may react to me? Perhaps I do
bear some responsibility in that. I am looking very closely at this
issue right now, as I have for several years. To whom or what, am I
responsible?

This can be answered in many ways, but my answer is simple. I am
responsible only to myself. If I can see that by tending to my own
actual needs, that others are not burdened, that is a good thing.

Now, from my own point of view, my primary responsibility to myself
is to know my own nature. This is sometimes referred to as
'self-realization'.

This term 'self-realization' has been heaped with such significance,
that the poor little actual self is crushed by the burden of carrying
pictures of glory and 'attainment'. And so it is; crushed, it becomes
a ghost who lives. This happens, the more the expectation of glory,
of overcoming, of vanquishing, of controlling. Soon, ranks of
brilliant trumpets announce the progress of the 'realizer', as he
nears the finish line of realization. However, nobody has ever
crossed that line; nobody has ever 'attained'.

Only a ghost remains, and perhaps this is understood. The reality 'as
it was before' is still 'there', but it is not 'here'.

I delight in hearing from other ghosts. Perhaps only a ghost can
recognize a ghost, eh?

Thank you again, Victor, for what you have shared here with us. It
has 'hit the spot'.


deus ex machina


==Gene Poole==

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
BETTY

Hello Marcia,
This is Betty reacting to Marcia reacting to Betty...I have long abandoned
all attempts to achieve the detatchment you speak of.
I feel that God resides as much in my neurotic ravings as my stillness.
In fact NDS feels like God reacting and jabbering to God across cyberspace
in a beautiful multiplicity of expression. I love it! Thank you Jerry!
Love and namaste,
Betty

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JOHN DUFF

xxxx:
> Our teacher was not awake though a wonderful person and that does
> make a difference.

If you know about identification then you might know something about your
use of the words 'teacher' and 'awake'.

The words are a means. Getting something from this, if at all, has to do
with personal relationship to the ideas offered. No one can 'give' this,
except yourself and perhaps Grace. As we know, others can apply 'heat', that
is all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MELODY

Hi Laura,

Welcome, and thank you for sharing about your childhood
response to the Vietnam War. Do I understand you
correctly that you were raised in Germany, and yet prayed
that the Vietnam War would end? I find this remarkable.
You must have been a truly sensitive child.

I remember praying for an end to the war, as well....
but for a far more selfish reason: one of my brothers had been
drafted.... and he had just completed basic training, and was
about to be shipped overseas.

But you bring up a very good point.

I remember in the mid to late 70's going out on a first date with a
guy I didn't know at the time was a Vietnam Vet. We saw
a movie called, "Heroes" about a Vietnam Vet who leaves
a VA hospital in search of a new life. At the end of the
movie the character played by Henry Winkler has a major
'flashback' ....and a bombing scene explodes accross the screen
....as we finally saw how Henry's war body had been killed, and
how Henry had been injured.

My date sat silent and motionless. He didn't move for more than
a minute after the movie ended. We walked silently to our car,
drove to a restaurant, ordered food and drinks....and it took him
a total of 30 minutes to finally say, "I was afraid this day would
come. But I didn't know it would come so soon." He refused to
talk about his experience other than to say it was very much like
what we saw on the screen.....and had he known this movie
had war scenes, he never would have come to it.

I knew many Vietnam Vets. Only one would discuss their
experiences, as awful and painful as they were.

Yes, I would agree that this war experience seems "deeply
fixed in the body-mind system" of the veteran population.

How many men are still being haunted by the memory of
their experiences there, I wonder.

love,
Melody

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HANS


When the attention gets fixed on that state it is denial, because the
other parts of life are not felt anymore. I create separation to the
suffering of life.

From that point of view I see no difference between somebody who is
stuck in bliss and somebody who is stuck on alcohol.

So for a start:
My name is Hans, I was searching for enlightenment my whole life to
escape from my difficulties. I finally did it.
I commit myself to enter into life totally for the first time. No
escaping anymore.
I am ready to face anything that I created in the first place.
I am ready to feel myself, my family and each human being in
consciousness, the glory, the failure, the ordinariness.
Hallelujah.
Hans

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BRUCE


Dear Sammy --

*Deep bow* :-)

My mother's family emmigrated
from Belarus, near Minsk, to
New York in 1909 (my
grandmother, Minna, who worked
in a Manhattan "sweatshop"
shirt factory to pay for her
husband's passage) and 1911
(my grandfather, Max -- it
took a *long* time to save
enough to buy a steerage
passage from St. Petersburg to
New York via Liverpool!).

They ran a tailor shop in
Brooklyn, but were very poor
at business. Max preferred
chain-smoking cigarettes,
discussing philosophy and
playing chess to pressing
trousers and altering sleeve
lengths. He had thick, dark
hair until the day he died of
lung cancer at the age of 60,
my mother and her siblings
say my elder son and I look
very much like him. I barely
knew him, but I do remember
the day of his funeral -- I
was too young to grasp what
death was, and spent the day
playing with my cousins,
waiting for our grandmother
and parents to return from
the cemetery. It was a sunny,
breezy day and the sky was a
bright, gleaming blue, with
fast-moving, cottony clouds.

Much love -- Bruce

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