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Saturday, Sept 16


JERRY:

The teachings do all start to sound the same. That's my
experience as I go from Satsang website to Satsang website.
You are pointing out that the Emporer is not as naked as he
makes out to be. The Emporer is really wearing a leisure
suit and a bad haircut from 1970. And anyone who imitates
the Emporer is going to look like a jerk.

Whatever effort it takes, it's good to stand alone, stand
free. That effort, as I see it, is spiritual life. For some
the effort may be a real, hard effort. For others it is an
unnoticeable movement of attention, or no movement at all.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ALEX:

Speaking of Heart

Yes, that's it isn't it.

Motivation streaming

Not an arising and a ceasing, but a non-stop heart flow,
with waves.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MAZU's post prompted many responses:

>The teachings of non-duality are profound indeed, with the
>potential to awaken. Yet, it has appeared to me from experience and
>in speaking with others, that these teachings are often used as a way
>to hide. Non-dual concepts are concepts none the less and the once
>profound concept has been turned into rhetoric by many. When
>speaking with one interested in non-duality it is most important to
>get the jargon down. Personal pronouns are most harmful, and of
>course there is "no effort","no doing", "no birth..no death". Most
>importantly your "search is over" and if really pressed with a
>difficult question just ask "Who wants to know?" But has one
>realized this...most often NO. If you are asking "Well, who is there
>to realize anything?", you are definately a hider. There is also the
>more subtle who you will most likely find giving a retreat or satsang
>in an area close to you, who are attached to consciousness. They
>hold to this "beingness" which is wholely due to the vital principle
>for dear life. It wasn't present before or after birth.
>Unfourtunately, they get students to rest(attached) in this vital
>principle and "not do anything.. no one to do it." Then there are
>geniune teachers who for some reason trap themselves in the language
>of non-duality. They say "You are free from the beginning", then the
>student says "I am Free!" Now we have another retreat coming to an
>area close to you. The whole point is you have to hold sincerity and
>answer to death(forget no birth..not death). I'm sorry to upset all
>those resting in their beingness..doing nothing. And those false
>teachers who look sincerely might have to get a new job.

ANDREW:

This is why there must be devotion, surrender.
Not only knowledge. My my my, my self, my world, my realization, my
heart,
my this that and the other....
Namaskar (I give my heart to you.)

And I don't mean bhakti to some "enlightened" individual or
organisation,
that's hiding too.


ELLY:

I enjoyed your point of view and I can totally relate to what you are
saying. I want to answer you even though I am not a Satsang teacher
and only on the very first steps to be a realised being. The glimpses
of non-duality and the seeing that there is no I has enabled me to
feel my patterns in daily life where I get identified. Before there
was just denial. It is like in a house when the light is coming then
you can start the clean up. It is my belief that only I can do the
cleaning process and it does not help to say there is no I.

I get some understanding of what perhaps the Tibetans mean when they
say the Gods can stay there for hundreds of life times, in order to
become a Buddha they have to come to the human realm again.


JOHN:
Enjoyed both Mazu's original post and your and Andrew's responses,
since
agreement always, for me, feels better than disagreement. For me, at
least,
there is a constant sense of amazement and validation of the 'name'
attached
to my chosen path or method when others arrive at the same perceptions
as I
hold from a different angle or path. This is also to say that these
current
perceptions and agreement may be replaced with others of a more
comprehensive nature. This, to me, is one small aspect of
'surrender'. I
have found, however, that even though these replacements of
understanding
have occurred, on whatever small level, that the former understandings
have
remained true, for who 'I' was at that time although they are
inactivated.
The rungs of a ladder, so to say.

Remaining open, to the best of my ability, begging Patience when
failing in
this effort



POU:
In the circus.. first it was primal.. everyone was a primal
therapist
after a 2 week training, then bodywork of one sort or another, again
two or
three week training, then came channeling...oh channelling whow
man....
again a weekend course, then came Reki, whom amn feel the energy....
then
this... then that... all 2 or three weekend long trainings.. farout
out
man...whow... lets do it... and now... it's.. wait for it............
satsang...... yeh.. it would appear that most of these dudes have no
training in offering such a serious sport..what will be next in
offering?



MAZU:

Thank you for your reply. You are quite correct in saying that it
does
little good claiming there is "no I", like some kind of affirmation.
Moreover, when one has realized "no I" , this is when one enters the
path.
Many teachers tell students they are finished at this point. It
always
amazes me how these teachers say the truth is unlimited, and then set
about
limiting it. I would like to add that while the experience of "no I"
is
certainly not an affirmation, there is something to be said about
being
loyal to what one has experienced. There is also a absolute refusal
to
divide oneself, that stems from a one pointed sense of urgency. One
should
stick with their sincerity, which is what made them a seeker before
they
heard all the spiritual jargon. People like yourself melt my heart,
and it
makes me angry when teachers let sincere people settle for less than
complete awakening, with full integrity. All of my Love, and best
wishes to you. Go, go, beyond the beyond.


ELLY:
Thank you also for your reply. I agree with you fully that the
realisation that there is “no I” is where one enters the
path. Not many Satsang teachers here in Germany would agree with it.
When I look to the east to traditions like Zen or Tibetans they did
not speak about enlightenment very often. The focus was on the work,
on the Sadhana. For me it feels sometimes like an enlightened
kindergarten in the west. And like you also others are pointing to the
way. It is my believe that we have to find a western way, we cannot
copy the east to realise how you call it complete awakening, with full
integrity.


MANU:

I can very much relate to the point you are making. For me just to
speak endlessly about the "No I" in a nice Satsang surrounding is a
complete lie. It is of course something which needs to be realized
but then...

It is my experience that after realizing the "No I"-ness I had to
make a decision: whether to build a nice no-I-castle where finally
nobody can touch me anymore or to look with the help of this
realization at my inner world. I feel that the realization helps
immensly to bring the house in order. Then the real joy starts - when
I take the light and bring it in every dark corner of myself.


HANS:
Dear Mazu, dear Pou and everybody else who believes this to be an
important point to discuss,

What is the point of being here on planet earth?
Waking up to the fact that there is no separate I. Of course.

In my so called path I very often have found psychological states
where I wanted to rest and finally identify with it.
As we all know, that doesn't work because the other side of the coin
appears.
Pou wrote so eloquently about the psyche in the awakening, how the
attention wants to identify with the emptiness, the none and ignore
the still wounded and confused psyche.
I am still creating and still see the world through the mind. And I
still experience the consequences of my believes and the resistance,
addiction, denial...

Not to use the awakened state to explore the beliefs and wounds and
to share with other human beings is wasting the gold and still an ego-
trip.
I believe existance will hit you in the face when you try to fuck
around.
With no I you can kill, rape, whatever every asshole can do.
I heard somebody saying each idiot can get enlightened. I totally
agree.
When I see there is only me acting how can I not get involved in my
creations? How? Just sitting around and let things happen is also an
action and an ego-state.
At this point the awakened state becomes poison.


TAMARA:


Dear all,
very good point. It seems here in Germany, especially Munich,
to be the new fashing to give Satsang. There are mature and
profound ones, but also some which seem to deepen the
collective trance and treat Satsang as a business.
Keeping people in a narcotic entertainment throws many
in deeper frustration and dependency.
The spiritual advanced subtle ego uses every opportunity to
parade itself.
for whom is this happening,
who are you
There is no I
My experience was that this kept me for years in an victim
identity and lethargy till it got too much and "I" stopped it.
When I am the source, then from this I can change everything.
Thanks for bringing this perspective in.


TOA:

this "doing nothing"- another concept, another identifikation, a
stuckness to deney the human side in englightenment?!
By God it´s a lot to do day in and day out to experience, to feel
my
creations, to find my hidden beliefs, to share it, to take
responsibility for my mistake....I could go on....and always knowing,
that there is no I!!!!
And it makes fun, tears are running, crying, laughing...God wants
all!!!


ALEX:

I remember a couple of years back, periodically going into these
states of no-mind and bliss, and when they went away feeling utterly
frustrated, and one time immediately after this had happened, I asked
an 'enlightened' friend in desperation,literally, 'What can I do?'

What I got from them was the kind of answer Mazu is talking
about, 'Who is it (the experience of no-mind) going to go away for?'
What I feel now, and this has really come from reading this dialogue
on 'seekers and hiders', is that that kind of answer does contain a
kind of smugness, that immediately creates separation between the one
speaking and the one being spoken to, that sets them apart. The
sentence is an enlightened concept.

At the time of this event I am describing, I remember I was actually
impressed by the remark but felt very stupid because I didn't get it,
and I was trying to hold onto the experience even though I knew I
couldn't. And I was left thinking that this person was in some way
special, that they had something I didn't have and I was trying
desperately to work out what it was!

I also have to admit that I went through a phase when I felt I
couldn't use the personal pronoun, 'I' without it feeling odd and on
occasions have also used questions like the one above, that Mazu
talks about. (Guilty!) Sometimes it has felt there has been
communication, other times not, so it is clearly not in the words.

SO, and this is the point I want to come to, 'What could this person
I speak of above have said in the situation I have described?' It is
this whole, I call it ability, of sending the mind back to it roots,
using concepts to point out the concepts. Replacing the object with
the subject - all of that. It seems to be this is what a 'real
satsang teacher' has to be able to do - and what we are on about.
Some of the traditional teachings from the East, I believe, have been
that the Master/Teacher can simply demonstrate or represent
enlightenment. (I have some beliefs in this area!)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DAN:

The word that isn't in any dictionary
would sound like "edgelessness"
if it were to speak itself, and
would unsay each sound in the
process of being articulated

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JOHN:

As is often said, "there is no place to go, nothing to do, in fact,
where
you are is the best place for you, [because your life reflects your
being
(this is a Fourth Way saying)]". To reject this is to deny what 'is'.
'IS'ness, acceptance of 'IS'ness, in my understanding, is a door out
of the
dualistic experience. The key to this door, however, is a complex
combination lock for some, for others, the door may never have been
locked.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HANS:


How deeply I looked I
could only find me being responsible, no one else. And this is good
news.
A good friend told me, the time for "my little enlightenment" is over.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HAZEL:

It really is a question of honesty in all communication to see and
"admit" that communication itself is an action only possible in
duality and that duality is in fact the medium to use for any action..
This seems a good moment to say how much I appreciate the
possibilities of this Egroup. Also impossible in nonduality.
isn't nonduality only the other part of duality , same as the famous
darkness and light? so what are we doing here, cementing concepts of
awakened states or like a cat hunting its tail trying to find a state
that is without concept? I honestly believe, that is impossible, so
lets live life the best we can.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

POU:

It is reported that Sir...Winston Churchill is famous for having said
about Hitler.. 'this is not the beginning of the end.. this is the end
of
the beginning.. Every morning we/I awaken into conscious awareness..
it
is the beginning of creation for as 'i' arise.. the world.. and all of
creation arises with me/you.. I asked.. and asked.. 'am I in the
world
?...or is the world in me..?' If you are serious about arriving at
the
conclusion of the question re entropy.. where the question
dissolves.. into
the answer.. and that which is asking the question.. Dissolves into
the
answer... then ask this question 'am I in the world or is the world
in
me'.. mind.... always goes to look for the answer..the question of
entropy.. or who am I? ends with the realisation there never was an
answer... for the answer was asking question all along...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~``

DAN:

Where is this place "duality"?

How far off is this place "nonduality"?

What separates these places from
each other?

Ah, these impossible possibilities:
I walk on the grass and feel a breeze.
I sit in my office typing.
I wake up in the morning.
I go to sleep at night.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JAN:
When there is mastery, there is a kind of control and control
presupposes a kind of doership. When surrendering, one thinks to give
up pleasure and pain, like and dislike etc. but in reality one gives
up the notion of "I". When this notion has left, "natural" tendencies
reveal themselves and can be enjoyed; when not, they will burn out
too.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NORA:

speaking of zen--in case any of you
hundreds of lurkers live in Tastykake
land--the Phila Buddhist Assoc. is going
to be studying Hui Neng's sutra (Platform
Sutra) all year beginning Oct 11- ie 2nd
Weds of each month--PBA is very nice, eclectic
group offering meditation and various programs,
free of charge(donations welcome) they meet
sundays at Haverford college and Weds at
Radnor Friends Meeting--details , directions etc
at

htttp://www.libertynet.org/buddhist

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
JERRY had written:

>So perhaps a good way to communicate spiritual interests to a friend
>or colleague is to do it in terms of what your bond is. If your bond
>isn't spiritual, you can't get spiritual on a person. You can only
>go deeply into the bond you have and let the other person see you as
>honestly as possible.
>

GENE responds:

I find that offering what appeals to the suppressed selfishness or
actual acute need of an individual, will produce a fruitful opening.

If a one is suffering, the need for relief makes receptive what
otherwise would be only casual interest, laced with the mockings of
one who still suffers the hidden disease of narcissistic assumptions
of immortality. There is nothing like acute suffering and the fear of
more suffering, or even the fear of death, to provoke an opportunity
for openness and education.

It is interesting to observe just how the intoxication of immaturity
loses its power, when actual suffering is being experienced.
Unaccustomed sobriety dawns, as an aid to going the right direction.

Those of us who are acutely sensitive by nature, suffer even at the
thought of the sufferings of others; for such a sensitive one, the
question and the sobriety are a constant. Casual attitude has been
totally abandoned. One who has accepted the reality of suffering for
many years, learns to use suffering as an unerringly accurate guide
to seeing.

When cleverness has been disproved, when the insulation of numbness
has lost it effectiveness, and when the gates of mortality are seen
to swing open, an individual will do what is required, what is
specified by nature; the next step will be taken.

If this step is taken without thought to 'alternative pathways', if
there is no question of commitment ("as though" one's life depends),
the Universe gifts clear unadulterated awareness; and the next step
is then illuminated, and the next, as long as there is full
uncontested acceptance of the apparent reality of "Dukkha".*

As long as there is 'Dukkha', there is becoming, but there is no
becoming without Being. Being is primary; without Being, there is no
becoming, and becoming is stimulated by Dukkha.

"What is" is thus Being becoming, as stimulated by Dukkha. The case
that Being precedes becoming, is both uncontestable and continually
debated.

If attention is given to abiding, neither desire nor aversion 'will'
push one out of balance. Both desire and aversion are the essence of
Dukkha; thus it is seen that attention to abiding is a response to
the troublesome companion Dukkha, which as long as it 'exists', is
secretly our best friend. Our best friend points out not only the
need for equanimity in the face of changing circumstances, but also
competently brings home the essence of what happens when that poise
of abiding is lost, even for an instant.

True selfishness is known as 'enlightened self-interest', and is thus
"of Self". Self demands constant, as opposed to sporadic, expression,
but it must be understood that this constant expression is of Self by
Self to Self, rather than of self to other. Internal knowing of the
constant of the dynamic of abiding, is a learned expression of Self,
denuded of any meaning given to the play of circumstance. Thus, this
abiding is the expression of Self, a continual dynamic (moving)
expression of Being (life).

The example of the uncompromising expression of abiding, is seen and
recognized by others, as a language which precedes any level of
symbol-manipulation. One who is this constant expression of Self, is
thus speaking loudly, a language of which we are everyone, native
speakers. We all recognize and respond to expression of abiding Self.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MAZU:

When one is no
longer looking for confirmation of Love(through thought,feeling,etc.),
only
then is there no duality involved. This takes a profound trust.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> >"What is" just "IS" - both mandatory and "forbidden" denote
>authority. Surrender is possible due to insight or Love;
>unconditional surrender entirely does away with the sense for
>authority.


GENE: Might I add (as the one who started the whole
'forbidden/mandatory' thing);

Like one of those little plastic puzzles, wherein you must move
squares around to form a certain order. The squares may have letters,
numbers, or may form a picture. The difficulty is, there is only one
blank area in which to move any single square, and any movement of
any square, disturbs the order already achieved.

Without a clear idea of what the pattern should be, any movement is
random attempt to succeed.

If there is a clear idea of what the pattern should be, there is
still difficulty, somehow analogous to 'quantum indeterminacy', in
that any attempt to determine (know) results in a change of the whole
pattern.

It is 'forbidden' to mess with the puzzle, but it is 'mandatory' to
mess with the puzzle.

In world-dream 'reality', 'Dukkha' (the assumption that something is
wrong with the way the puzzle looks) stimulates action. If the puzzle
were locked, no movement would be possible. But the puzzle cannot be
locked, and instead, an overpowering command is given (FORBIDDEN!)
which evokes anxiety in one who tries to change the way the puzzle
looks. Any change which is attempted, produces feedback of chaos; all
subsequent attempts are then more and more toward producing 'order',
of a sort imagined by one who has never seen the completed puzzle.


Big paradigms have been proposed, each of which is advertised to be
an accurate map to 'correcting' the puzzle, to move things around
into the proper order, to make everything clear.

What has been missing from most of these grand cosmological/spiritual
paradigms is the realization that the 'forbidden' is a 'red herring';
that is to say, that people who suffer, naturally love the challenge
to reduce or remove suffering, and that the 'forbidden' is bait. One
who touches the puzzle 'falls from grace' and produces chaos (evicted
from Eden). But this may be the only ('unenlightened') way to really
understand that nothing need be changed. Authority is passed to the
'Devil', the commander of the forces of Dualism.

(Interestingly, the Devil (AKA Satan) is thus seen to be in the chain
of command.)

To make a long story shorter, it is eventually realized that the
puzzle and the need to fix it are both parts of the same conspiracy
to provoke individuals into action, to aspire to mastery, to indulge
in the folly of the fool who becomes wise, etc etc etc.. Perfection
in the first case is now able to be seen, in retrospect. Perhaps the
best advise to be given (if any) to newborns of Eden, is 'don't
move'. On the other hand, would you give up your wisdom for eternal
safety from Chaos?

In any event, one cannot go 'back' to perfection. There is no call
for regret. Wrong choices are punished impersonally; correct choices
result in upgrade in ability to choose. Eventually this conditioning
process results in a sober, balanced person, who does not fall for
trickery. This person will not necessarily offer evidence of any
sort, which would lead another to freedom. Instead, what may be
offered are misleading clues, to intensify the 'search' and thus
speed all on their ways.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MELODY:
Stepping out of the game,
sitting on the sidelines,

watching the players
in helmets move by;

all thoughts of winning
and losing,

advancing
and defending,

give way to

a 'falling in love'
with the arena

and a cool, crisp Saturday afternoon.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SARAH:

Some years ago I used to do the mirror meditation a lot and at one
point in a meditation camp I looked into a mirror and saw the eyes of
love looking back at me. Since then I know that I am love, for me
consciousness is love.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

JAN:

True, thoughts and feelings are the result of identifications. Some
are hard-wired like hunger, thirst, sleep, and cannot be given up
whereas others can be classified as "ghosts of the mind" and given up.
In this category falls one's entire sadhana too, therefore the saying
"remove one thorn by another and throw away both".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

BIRGIT:

For a long time I thought non-doing is the answer, very easy - I
just "do" it´- had good times, had bad times with it. India is a
good
ground for pracitising.
Then back to the West - the whole lot of frentic acting started
again - just being like anybody else around....the same as in India!!!

Now: There is lots to do and lots to undo - still, the gold is known
and the fear standing next to it: what to do if nothing comes? - or:
The unknown wants to walk in, may be I'm busy or may be elsewhere
dreaming, forgetting that God is knocking and wants some tea?

I found out that "God wants to have tea not with sugar but with fun"
and me, too!! He doesn't care what I do, if I simply do with love.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MARCIA:

The illusion that
we tell ourselves is that if we decided to, we
could do what we decided. All this talk of
whether we should do something or not is
just pouring of the empty into the void. I set
a resolution and when I fail to keep it, I tell
myself that I never really wanted to do it in
the first place. I change the resolution to fit
what actually happens.

One small proof: try to keep your attention
from one stop sign till the next. If you are
like me, and I am not anything more or less
than ordinary, you won't be able to do it.
Until you can actually exercise the attention
muscle, talk of taking responsibility is just
talk.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

CLARISSA:

> Sometimes the seeker coming to some "enlightened" individual is
> hiding his non-agreement with what
> the "enlightened" one says or does. Is hiding his own intelligence
> and his own opinions, considering that the "enlightened" one
> is "further" than himself. Cause who would be satisfied with an
> answer to a question like "How come the world is such a mass, if God
> is everything? - "There is no I, so who is asking the question in
the
> first place?" - "It is all Samsara". Great answers, thank you.
> And the "enlightened" one is hiding, cause he has actually no answer
> to this kind of questions.

ANDREW:
I wonder if there is an honest verbal answer to such a question
(except "I don't
know.") Any answer is not true, it's just a ruse which if skillful
points the
questioner back at themself.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MAZU:

If your house was on fire, you would get out.
You wouldn't give a rats behind if you were doing or not doing.
Moreover,
you wouldn't spend time discussing exit routes. It is my not that
humble
contention that until one really realizes they are in a burning house,
one
will not have the sense of urgency and one pointedness that is
imperative to
awaken profoundly. Someone who has this perspective does not have
time to
worry about doing or non doing. I know to the core, that anyone
interested
in these matters like yourself, has a burning sincerity. Don't let
ink on a
page get in your way. Most of these half baked teachers will be
burning to
death in the house, "not doing" much of anything

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

TIM JANE:

TIM JANE:
Now this is where the beautiful, ultimate sincere testing ground tests
one,
and what is that? DEATH. Oh, yes, death finds out what concepts one
has
gained from experience, and what one has spent there life talking
about, but
not actually knowing.
Death, a place where all borrowed concepts will vanish, before one
even has
chance to look for them. Death will find out just what understanding
one has
gained.
It may not be impressed with old hat cliches, that sounded good once
upon a
time, and what one once agreed with.
Asking who is there to realize anything? can sometimes be a neat trick
of
avoidance, but avoiding what?maybe ones death.
Presuming one is dead is not good enough, one has to die.
With awakening, slowly, slowly,one can learn the art, but what a
mistake to
presume one already has it.
Are you hiding? or are you seeking? yes wonderfull, provocative,
disturbing
question, but disturbing only those who are still invested in the lie.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SARLO:

Experience, your learned
art, intuition and circumstances will conspire to let you know when it
is
appropriate to be sharing your experiences with others and passing on
your
wisdom.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

RUMI:

"Wherever there is ruin, there is hope for treasure -
Why do you not seek the treasure of God in the wasted heart?"

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