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Friday August 18, 2000



J __________________________________________________________

JERRY

Sometimes I get the feeling there are people who have
stopped growing, who are perfectly still, virtually dead.
Their writing is so final. Like death.

Yet some do speak with finality and retain a sense of
vitality. Perhaps it is because they are processing
suffering all the while, and there is no finality to
suffering. Suffering is life.

To speak with finality and to not be responsible for
suffering, for life, is to mimic and mock those who are
responsible and speaking with finality.
-----------------

I offer this as an inquiry, "Processing suffering?".

____________________________________________________

MICHAEL

A part of the appearance of life. Suffering is ok as far as
it goes. But, suffering only will take a person so far and
no farther. As a prod to reach for something more, suffering
has its place. Suffering can become addictive. We can be overwhelmed
with suffering. As one who has suffered grandly, I know!

Suffering sucks! Thank God suffering ends. :-))

> >
> > To speak with finality and to not be responsible for
> > suffering, for life, is to mimic and mock those who are
> > responsible and speaking with finality.

Sometimes, mockery is the best medicine! Poor whiners! Snap out
of it!

The 'AM' is responsible for all of the suffering. The
murdering and the torturing and the starving of this illusory
world are 'done' by the 'AM'. Yes, when that 'awakened' state
happens one may see/be the suffering and accept the responsibilty
for it. One also accepts the responsibility for all of the joy
and beauty as well.

> >
> > Jerry
>
> I offer this as an inquiry, "Processing suffering?".
>

The seeker asks, "Why me, God, oh why me?"
And God responds, "Oh I don't know.
There's just something about you that pisses me off!" :-))


HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

Peace - KaBoom! Zap! Yeowch! I surrender! - Michael

____________________________________________________

GATOR

Gator here... A newbie lurky about... "To die before you die..." "To be born
again..." one must die! Yet, it seems abnormal to seek out suffering and become
a
sacrificed whatever... but the devotee chooses not to avoid suffering.
Suffering
allows powerful energies of a "Self" to burn away the impure within the psyche.
Yet,
with a constant thought of remembering the Divine (whatever one calls God),
suffering
is less noticeable. And, it is true, that each new birth there must be a
breaking
down of the old (seemingly) patterns, and the suffering process produces the
tears
that washes clean of what is observed. Suffering unlocks the door of the heart,
and
such opening is an act of grace. Such is the contradictions of the pathless
path,
IMHO.

Smiles... Gator (that is, Robert Ryder - I wonder if Mitch knows me?)
____________________________________________________________________

MELODY


Hi Michael,

I have never met anyone who said that being mocked
helped them 'snap out of it'. Are you speaking from
experience? If so, would you share your story of deep
suffering, and how someone mocking you freed you from
it?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Melody
_________________________________________________

MICHAEL

Sure, that's an easy one to provide an example or two for.

Have you ever gently teased one of your children into smiling
and laughing when they were crying because someone hurt
thier feelings?

Cruel mockery, no. Gently pointing, and prodding, yes - sometimes.

I'm not saying that all medicines or one medicine is appropriate
for each hurt. Sometimes the best medicine for pain is just to
hug and hold and say, "There, there, it's okay. We love you."

Sometimes it's better to say, "Aw, shut up and get over it!" ;-)
Or, "Are you done now?"

Let Heart be your guide in this. There are a thousand things to
make one ill - a thousand things to cure one's ills. (This
from the Aquarian Gospel, I think.)

Loveya, Melody!

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

Peace - Darn, that smarts! - Michael
____________________________________________________________

One more example then I simply must head for the office!

This one might be considered as the Universe responding - or not. :))

About four years ago I was going through some major pain and
suffering. I prefer not to relate the story. It's just a story.
Suffice it to say that 'boy, life sucked!' :-(

I was reading some self-help text and this gift was given:

The text asked the question about suffering, 'Why, me?'
The answer was, 'Why not you? What makes you so special that
you shouldn't suffer?'

The feeling was the Universe was throwing all of my suffering
back into my face and just laughing IT's ass off! And, inviting
me to laugh along! So I did! :-)))))))))))

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO!

Peace - Michael
___________________________________________________________

MOD TOLLENS replies to Jerry

> Sometimes I get the feeling there are people who have
stopped growing, who are perfectly still, virtually dead.
Their writing is so final. Like death.
<

The 'personal i' may simply have disappeared.

>Yet some do speak with finality and retain a sense of
vitality.<

The world may seem infinitely more glorious, but
without a personal i, who is there to enjoy it?

>Perhaps it is because they are processing
suffering all the while, and there is no finality to
suffering. Suffering is life.
<

Without a personal sense of i, one can hardly
call it suffering. Perhaps one can, but what's
the point?

> Perhaps it is because they are processing
suffering all the while, and there is no finality to
suffering. Suffering is life.<

Perhaps they see suffering, but see that it's
absurd and inaccurate to say 'suffering' because
there isn't anyone who suffers.

>To speak with finality and to not be responsible for
suffering, for life, is to mimic and mock those who are
responsible and speaking with finality.<

Only if the one speaking is speaking through the
sense of a personal i.

Thanks for your very interesting thoughts.
Mod
_____________________________________________________

and JERRY responds

>
> The 'personal i' may simply have disappeared.

How can that be understood? Ask the one whose 'personal i'
has disappeared, what that means, and they may provide an
answer to satisfy you, but how could they know what that
means? And what can I do with your statement? How can I
understand it?

With the physical, mental, emotional organism still alive
and operating in the world it makes no sense to hear the
sound of death in anyone's writing. Thanks for writing, by
the way, Mod! If I hear the sound of death in another's
writing, maybe it is because something is not moving in the
organism. All the joy and pain, instead of being processed,
is being blocked.

I find that the best I can do
is to acknowledge maya or suffering
while keeping my attention on what might be called 'ground
of being', 'I Am', 'deepest truth', or whatever one wishes.

In that way I 'process' the suffering, the pain and joy,
maya. It means I process Everything, including processing.

A person can speak and sound wise and wonderful, yet have
stopped the processing. It could be that they simply have
become unfeeling. It can be very difficult to know whether
suffering is being processed or whether a barrier has been
erected.

__________________________________________________________>
> The 'personal i' may simply have disappeared.

How can that be understood? Ask the one whose 'personal i'
has disappeared, what that means, and they may provide an
answer to satisfy you, but how could they know what that
means? And what can I do with your statement? How can I
understand it?

With the physical, mental, emotional organism still alive
and operating in the world it makes no sense to hear the
sound of death in anyone's writing. Thanks for writing, by
the way, Mod! If I hear the sound of death in another's
writing, maybe it is because something is not moving in the
organism. All the joy and pain, instead of being processed,
is being blocked.

I find that the best I can do
is to acknowledge maya or suffering
while keeping my attention on what might be called 'ground
of being', 'I Am', 'deepest truth', or whatever one wishes.

In that way I 'process' the suffering, the pain and joy,
maya. It means I process Everything, including processing.

A person can speak and sound wise and wonderful, yet have
stopped the processing. It could be that they simply have
become unfeeling. It can be very difficult to know whether
suffering is being processed or whether a barrier has been
erected.

_____________________________________________________

DANIEL HELLER



According to my gurus Wayne and Ramesh, the idea "all there is, is
Consciousness" is, like every other thing/thought/words/phenomena, a
concept. No concept is the truth:

"The tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao"


The usefulness of the concept is to remove other concepts we have
mistakenly adopted as true, such as: "I am this body and mind, I am
so and so born on such date to those parents."

I am told that we are the limitless absolute, beyond time and space,
the source of all. That's what the sages say, but for me it is still
rumor only.

Maybe I'm a sucker, but I buy it.

Love
D
________________________________________________________________

GLORIA

Here is a quote from Jack Kornfeld's new book, After the Ecstasy, the
Laundry.

"Mother Teresa spoke of "seeing Christ in the poor and sick" The poet
Rumi longs for the Divine: "In the face of everything separate, I want
to see only You." And when he remembers there is nothing but God (Buddha
Nature), he laughs and says, "Why struggle to open a door between us
when the whole wall is an illusion?" With every in and out breath, with
every mouthful of food, with every word we voice, we express our
interbeing with all that lives....

We exist in a mandala of wholeness amidst a sea of Buddhas, visible
whenever we open the eyes of love and wisdom."

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