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>>>Daniel, Larry, one, two, zero...

Daniel wrote:
So differences apply to the apparent objects in phenomenality, oneness
applies to noumenality and the subjective presence that underlies the
phenomena.
--------------------------

Hi Daniel, I think I understand what you are saying, but I have a few
qualms. If phenomenality is consciousness, what is noumenality. Why
can't phenomenality be oneness and noumenality be noneness? Howcome
there's two? Who's counting? Isn't presence a phenomenon? How do you
know there is a noumenon?

yours in the way, Larry

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~~~~~~


>>>From Mu...

i see only you
you see only me
we are in
and in front of
the mirror of love

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\
~~~~~~

>>>Another response to John Franklin's question about time and nonduality, this
one from Dave (manchine)...

Hi John,

Every time I think I understand what's going on, something
else comes along to show me that I'm just begining.

A long time ago, it started with I AM. I couldn't imagine
anything more profound.

Over the years, I have been left with the impression that
our consciousness is like a sphere. At first this sphere is
tightly focused on all the detail surrounding us. All the
small daily things consume every ounce of our energy.

It's like looking at life through a narrow tube. Through the tube,
you see what's directly in front of you, a small piece of
everything. It's always been that way, so to us it appears that the
entire universe is what we see through this tube at any given moment.
As we move the tube around to get more of a look, things pass out of
view and new things come into view. This seems to be the normal way
of looking at things. We remember what "was" in view, and try to put
that together with what is now in view. We begin to imagine what
other things should appear.

The best way to make sense of this is to imagine that things
appear in sequence (time). Let's take two individuals, looking through
tubes. One starts looking from one place, the other from another.

Now it becomes pretty clear, why, when finally the two get to
looking at the same thing, they each see this thing as something
a little different. Each one constructed his images based on a whole
different sequence of views.

As consciousness expands, the sphere, or diameter of the tube becomes
larger. Moving the tube now has, relatively speaking, fewer things
leaving the tube and fewer things entering. If you could imagine
no tube at all, nothing would enter, and nothing would leave.

Make any sense?

Dave

***********

>>>Jerry...


Hi Dave,

Gene Poole wrote a classic piece which sounds like what you
are saying. It is at

http://www3.ns.sympatico.ca/umbada/gene3.htm#3

Here's how it begins:

The whole and its parts: I AM and ego

Envision a cone-shaped object; the wide end, like a
floodlight, illuminates

all that is.

The narrow end, the very sharpest point, like the sharpest
of

laser-scalpels, is able to separate the most minute
particles, one from

another.

The wide end of the cone is "I Am", the tiny sharp pointed
end is 'ego'.

I Am and ego are one and the same, one is the front, one is
the back; it is

wholeness.

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~~~~~~

>>>A snip of one of Gloria's posts...


The good/evil duality is like the oldest story around. The first step of
actually
labeling and seeing "whatever" as evil is what activates the self-righteous
urge to
reform it for its own good...that is how it becomes a weapon. We do this to
ourselves
and to other people both. Then we get to identify with the good and feel
saintly..uh,
while it lasts. This creating of the duality in the first place is what sets the
whole pattern in motion tho, with results like the inquisition and countless
lesser
stuff. Admittedly, it's more of a challenge when someone is crucifying
you...still
this first label and identification of evil is a step to be carefully looked
into.
It's sorta gotten way out of hand, in my humble opinion. Part of the 'resist
not' can
be refraining from jumping into that duality. Even with the judo part of that
quote,
they don't just stand there and let someone beat them up tho...do they? Somehow
they
transform the "attack energy"...and render it harmless. Like Jesus saying,
"Forgive
them, they know not what they do" and thus he changed attack into ignorance.

...

I don't have solutions to much of anything anymore..but I do find it useful to
ask
myself why I am making this into such a problem to begin with.

Love,
Gloria

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~~~~~~

>>>Melody sent this piece by Osho...


"Whatsoever you believe, you project.
Belief is a projection. It is just like a
projector in a movie film-house:
you see something on the screen which
is not there.

The projector is hidden behind, but
you never look at the projector, you
look at the screen. The projector is
at the back, and the whole game is
going on there,

but you look at the screen.

The whole game is going on in
your mind, and a mind filled with
belief always goes on projecting
things to the world, it sees things
that are not there. This is the problem.

The mind which believes is always
vulnerable and always provides an
opportunity to be exploited by the
cheaters - and the cheaters are all
around. The whole path is filled
with robbers, because no map exists.

---from Osho's "The Grass Grows
by Itself"

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~~~~~~

>>>Mark...


I cut holes in my pockets, Lord
So the gift of your love might return to you that much faster.
I cut holes in my heart, Lord,
To better let you in.
I cut holes in the fine silk of time, Lord,
To peer through in wonder at your splendor.
I cut holes in the whole, Lord
Now teach me how to sew.


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~~~~~~

>>>Dave, Mark, andrew, Melody...

Whatsoever you believe, you project...

************

Dave: Yes, this seems to be clear at this point,
it's the practical aspects that are complicated.

Just when you think you've got a grip on the concept,
someone comes along and pushes a button!

Happened to me just yesterday!

In this case, I did my best, I caught myself
reacting and tried to look at everything that
was going on. In the last moments of the situation,
I came around to where I should have been in the first
place, looking into his eyes and realizing, that this
wasn't about "him", or "me".

The heat of the moment sucks up all attention,
bells go off, alarms sound, all systems to the
defense. Who's going to remember some quote, let alone
that it really isn't real! Even when we manage to
maintain some composure, we try to watch what we are doing
be careful about not saying "such and such".

WHEN IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYONE DOING ANYTHING.

I put that in caps, because it's the part that gets forgotten.
And the problem is, it's not a thing that should be remembered,
it's a thing that should be felt, or better yet, intrinsically
know.

Knowing Self helps a lot. One tends to trust oneself over
others. Human nature. The whole separation thing. Me more important
than other. Darn, even when we try to remember, that it shouldn't
be so. But when we see that Self is not only you but everybody else,
I guess you end up with that kind of intrinsic knowledge that
Christ or Buddha had.

So yeah, this is all a projection, 75% of us have that clear,
conceptually.

In the Gut Reaction sense, what's your guess? 1%?

So how do we get past the theory?

*************

practice.

Love, Mark

*************

How about just being happy when happy, sad when sad, angry when angry, etc. ,
natural
and uninhibited. Ultimately it seems to me that any selfjudgement about such
things is
in the end based in some form or other of selfish craving, even the wish to be a
'better' person. Mark's right, practice, some form of meditative practice,
formal or
not, so that one is familiar with the stillness under thought, then the
reactions seem very much like wind driven waves on the surface which rise when
the
wind blows and quickly dissipate when it stops, and the underlying stillness is
everpresent.

love,

andrew

*************


I really liked (Mark's) response....practice,
but I'll share what I've noticed.

It helps me, Dave, to get out of my head in this
stuff, and stay focused on my body. That way I
avoid stepping in a bunch of 'should' stuff.

I simply notice when I'm 'pushing away' a thought
or a feeling. I'm seeing it as deciding to break
the 'habit' of resistance. And choosing instead
to 'receive' (instead of refuse) the feeling or
thought that is being triggered.

I'm finding that if I stay focused on 'my' reactive
thought and feeling....by watching body cues....
that I'm freed from taking people, and their
actions, so personally.


Melody

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~\
~~~~~~

>>>xan sent...


From Gangaji's little book, Freedom & Resolve:

Until the body is gone and the mind is completely finished, until your
last breath is expelled, there must be a willingness to be totally aware
of the mind's impulse to move toward or to move against all mental,
emotional, physical and circumstantial objects. In this willingness you
can see the freedom that is the truth of one's being revealed in the
purity of the non-teaching, be still.

Attend to what is already still.

The more you express this stillness, the deeper and more subtle are the
challenges of seeing the mind's tendency to move, to take, to keep away,
or to deny the movement.

You can use your time extremely rarely, preciously, to see what object
is being followed. Silence can't be followed. Silence doesn't go
anywhere. Silence can only be met in silence.

I invite you to give up all concepts of your life, your present, your
future, and to see wht is untouched by this possessive pronoun of
suffering. And when I say "suffering," I am not excluding please. The
most intense pleasure, is included in suffering as well as the most
intense pain.

The invitation of Ramana, who speaks from the core of your own being,
calls to you with the simple phrase, be still.

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