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Dan wrote:

Jesus said, "Why do you call me 'good?' Verily, there is One who is
good."

There is One who is enlightened.
That One is Enlightenment itself, is Reality alone.

regardless of what we say about It
we have never said anything that changed It
neither brought It closer, nor distanced It

regardless of our affirmations or denials, our claims or disclaimers --
Enlightenment remains as ever
ever present
doing its Doing - doing Nothing
ever momentary
ever beyond momentary

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dan:

When one wins and another loses
The One has faded into the background and No One has won.

By taking a position
to be explained, defended, or argued
A million miles of duality have already been created

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Glo:
I can't help but notice the duality between men and
women participating on this list. The women are off in
one room, mostly talking to one another, discussing relationships and
approaching nonduality from a more emotional, heart-centered point of view.
(Not that we aren't also in our heads with ideas, but ideas about what?
Usually how people relate and feel.) I'm not sure I even have a clue what
you guys are up to
in your room. I read it, most of it I think I understand the what you are
talking about, I just don't get the why it matters so much .....

Marcia:

:-) Wink, wink. Glo, if you want to play with the guys in
their room just start making stuff up. Bottom line is that
they don't know what they are talking about either. They
need women to ground them.


Dan:

I do so know what I'm talking about.
I think.
I think I do, so I do, right?
Or wait, if I think that I think I do, maybe I don't.
Wait a second..
What was that you said about being grounded?
I definitely understood that part.
I think.


TimG:

Men and women do not "need" each other. They need freedom from ignorance.
They can enjoy one another, but as soon as neediness and attachment enter
the picture, the whole thing becomes destructive.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Xanma@aol.com

from Ken Wilbur

"Transcending the ego" actually means to expand but include
the ego in a deeper and higher embrace, first in the soul or deeper
psychic, then with the Witness or primordial Self, then with each previous
stage taken up, enfolded, included and embraced in the radiance of One Taste.
And that means we do not "get rid" of the small ego, but rather, we inhabit
it fully, live it with verve, use it as the necessary vehicle through which
higher truths are communicated. Soul and Spirit include body, emotions and
mind.

Put bluntly, the ego is not an obstruction to Spirit, but a radiant
manifestation of Spirit. All Forms are not other than Emptiness,
including the form of the ego. It is not necessary to get rid of the ego, but
simply to live it with a certain humble exuberance. When identification
spills out of the ego and into the Kosmos at large, the ego discovers that
the individual atman is in fact all of a piece with Brahman. Thus, to the
extent you are stuck in your small ego, a death and transcendence is
required. Narcissists are simply people whose egos are not yet expanded
enough to embrace the entire Kosmos, and so they try to be central to the
Kosmos instead.

---
Note: I take his use of "ego" as "I" identity.

X.


Dan responds:

Xan - thanks for posting as much useful information as you do. I've read
quite a bit of Wilber, and critiques of his work, and find his expressions
a mixed bag as far as resonating with my awareness of things. Sometimes
for me it hits the target, at other times, far from it. He has tried to
integrate a lot of divergent stuff, and I applaud the effort. I guess it's
all grist for the mill, and looking at my reactions to his stuff, positive
and negative, certainly has been a useful learning and sorting out process
for understanding my own perspective more clearly (if not fully buying his).

I take the theme of these two postings as, "the concept of transcending the
ego is a concept with which to take care." I agree with you, and him, on
this point. I hope you'll take my humorous response on the other as
benevolent humor. I like your perspective that if the ego is understood in
its Latin sense of "I am," this helps clarify.

The selection you chose below makes a point. This seems very similar to
the point Walt Whitman made in "Song of Myself," which someone posted here
a few days ago. I love the way Whitman said it, so much innocence and
amazement came through in his expressions.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: "Dan Berkow, PhD" <berkowd@uncwil.edu>

I once met a narcissist. He said to me, "you're narcissistic."

I said to him, "no I'm not, but you wouldn't have said that
unless you're a narcissist. So therefore, you are."

"No I'm not," he said. "I'm really the Universe."

"Oh yeah," I said, "Well, I'm just as much the Universe as you, so there."



with humility,

The Universe

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bruce responds:

I used to be conceited but
since my nondual awakening
my personality has been
perfect.


Dan:

Thank you for that.

It's obvious from your statement that your awakening
is for real; the perfection of
your personality is clear to me
as nothing less than the Ultimate
Light that expresses through all.

I say this because, since my nondual awakening,
my expansive sense of ego
has been transformed into
an infallible judgment of what is and isn't
the way things are.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Marcia:

You quote Blake.."Eternity is in love with the products of time."
Solid time is eternity and time connected through love. All the
products of time both actual and potential constitute simultaneous
time. (I just made that up <s>)

When I realized I could separate from being separate it was
simple. Example. I enter into the room. My daughter is
"having a problem" which gets projected out onto to me
as my fault and results in a power struggle between us. I
separate from the power struggle between us. I separate from
being separate. I now can adjust Marcia's behavior to effect
the outcome. I can become Wind, Thunder, Earth,
and so forth. It is Zen fencing. My question. Is the third
position the adjustment of Marcia's behavior? I am back
in the picture operating from a higher level of consciousness.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Guitgo@aol.com

Aleks:

Here are a couple of poems by the Kashmir poet, Lalla (1320-1391). They are
translated by Coleman Barks. Lalla lived and danced the celebration of life
through shiva--her poetry is clear, sparse and strong. enjoy!
love,
aleks

"What is worship? Who *are* this man
and this woman bringing flowers?

What kind of flowers should be brought,
and what streamwater poured over the images?

Real worship is done by the mind
(Let that be a man) and by the desire
(Let that be a woman). And let those two
choose what to sacrifice.

There is a liquid that can be released
from under the mask of the face,
a nectar which when it rushes down
gives discipline and strength.

Let that be your sacred pouring.
Let your worship song be silence.

*********

What understanding comes through reading?
I decided not to let books determine
my life, but only whatever helps dissolve
infatuation and sentimental longing.

The shrewdness of the innate,
subtle intellect is a fox
who knows what i need.

------------------------------------------------------

>No... freedom HAS to begin with "the individual." The only divide that can
>be crossed is the divide within, our own tendency to separate everything
>into "good and bad," "right and wrong," "freedom and slavery," "us and
>them." The duality of opposites must be annihilated within each person...


...edit


Tim,

Your post re: borders, separation, wars, etc.., is
certainly on target. Yet life is founded upon moral
consequences; what we sow, we reap. If one action leads to
greater unity (less duality), and the other to greater
dis-unity, doesn't this imply objectively a "right path"
and a "wrong path?"

JL

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Dan:

When hungry, be hungry
When suffering, suffer

There is no accepting or not accepting
no entity who can accept or reject

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: magus@cet.com (==Gene Poole==)

HS

Re: Freedom/



Freedom; a broken ring

Discontinuity disqualifies

Human consensus reality

Leaving that fine dust

Rendered by difference-mind;

Tracks of history

Lead to this edge

Beyond which is origin,


As origin

I leave artifacts

Of gold, of iron, of dust

No longer impedimentia

Now mere texture,

Topology of time;

A broken ring made spiral...


==Gene Poole==

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I am aware that life is whole
its abstract part and concrete part
are not parts at all
only one movement that we divide at our own risk...
can I convey that awareness?
can I receive it from you?

My perception as I write this is that
life is a moving through

(and being born, and being borne)

being born may have its joys
and it has its difficulties --
this is my experience

that expressing and connecting doesn't
always work as easily as I wished;
far from it, sometimes.

some frustration and some hopefulness are mixed in this.

at times
I want to communicate what I am experiencing
but it isn't easy --
even the word experiencing doesn't seem quite right.

the effort to communicate,
when it works,
deepens the awareness --
I thank you for yours, and for listening
and for those who have listened
and spoke...

yet it doesn't always work with ease.
I accept that this is how it is.

so I view this process as one that
has struggles as well as peace,
an easiness to it,
yet at times includes difficulty.

I don't feel that I am fully born...

I am most at peace with
those who see a light,
who are in process,
who are becoming and being
who experience insecurity
as well as certainty

who have suffered
as well as seen
and enjoyed

whose light shines
through their humanness

Do these words give my experience?
I attempt...

One very positive experience for me
in reading the postings here
is an enthusiasm
to hear from those
who perceive "another way"
where there isn't a them and a me.

This is so refreshing for me.
Usually, if I think and express this way,
it feels like it sets me apart.
It is alien to many.

Some are more at home on this planet than I am.
And I am more at home where I live than many
would be.

Many I meet in day to day commerce,
rarely would express, feel, or think this way.
Yet there is touching there and caring there
at times. And that is good.

When I find expressions of "this"
are available
I enjoy these - and there is enough...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Glo:

I know a lot, but I do not think my feelings have quite caught up..actually
I am regressing into some needy child before my very eyes. Caught in a
duality warp. Still crazy after all these years. I could spend years
working this out with a therapist..or possibly learn to transcend. I do
know all these surface differences do not need to make any difference or
separate us. I think I am having a
bad week here.

aleks:

who is the needy child? i once dreamed my
inner child was pictured on the back of a milk carton. boy, was that a messy
journey. it took me years to realize i just needed to buy that child a big
red balloon.

Marcia:

From: Marcia Paul <jacpa@earthlink.net>

Neediness, neediness, neediness. Just what the heck
is this thing called neediness. Is is love turned inside
out?

We are all human after all. We are herd animals.
We need one another on a real basic human level.
A baby and mother skin to skin. Two lovers skin
to skin. A group holding hands in a circle and
praying a silent prayer before a meal.

I used to think that neediness was bad. But I have
come to realize that the need is real to both give
and receive love. I deny the need because of my
fear that it won't be fulfilled. And most of the time
it hasn't and won't be. And that is because it takes
a mature human to be able to really love another.
If I can't love then another's neediness is a threat to
my security.

I used to believe this. I would approach an intimate
for a hug and was told that I was just being needy.
That I didn't really want to hug the other. That I just
needed to make myself okay. Well SO WHAT?
What is wrong with that? If you love someone and they
are not feeling so hot isn't it okay to try to make them
feel better. Just a now, now. Everything is okay. If
two people are in a power struggle with one another
then they can't do this for one another. But that doesn't
make the need any less real.

aleks: aren't we all just about up to *here* with the politically correct
view that neediness is just blanket wrong--no exception, and that helping
another is co-dependent? i enjoyed your post very much. i think we all
self-helped ourselves into one big mess in the eighties, and part of what
we're doing here is clearing the fall-out. self help was/is, in a lot of
ways about ego. know your ego. love your ego. make big bucks with your ego!


Xan:

These days when I feel the need for love or attention, something reminds me
that what I want is within me already. By allowing my attention to turn to
the love in me the feeling of lack or need disappears. When I feel
something is missing, I ease into the completeness that I have always been.
It's all right here where I am, and it's alright.


Melody:

For me it was the lack of what I call 'cradling'.

It's a vidal part of nurturing that many of
us miss(ed). A developing child needs it as
much as the milk it is being fed.

Xan talked about being embraced by the
Universal Mother, was it?

I have spent many wonderful moments imaging
myself - both as an adult, and a child -
being cradled in someone's arms, while I
just let go...go totally 'limp'.

I agree it is something many lack. Just
as no calcium will show affects after years
of not having any, so will not being held by
another.

Is this what you were alluding to in
neediness?

Marica:

Well yes. I feel like adding that it is a need for
affection whether it be physical, emotional or
mental if that makes sense. Mental would be
working with someone to help them connect.
I am just putting this down here on paper (screen)
without much thought. This is intentional as I
am working to avoid censoring and categorizing.

But it does bring up the question now as to whether
this is how others see neediness. We may be talking
about something that each of us defines differently.
Like Gloria for instance. Is this what she meant?

Melody:

As we talk more on the subject of neediness
it strikes me just how important developmental
issues are as we approach the nondual
perspective.

We certainly wouldn't say to someone who
can't see the screen,
because of a vitamin A deficiency,
"oh that's just his blindness whining".

If I couldn't walk without a limp because
no one was around to properly set my
broken leg.....would you feel like you're
doing me a favor for mocking me for my
limp, and for the arthritic pain in my
joints?

Yet, how quickly we would condemn ourselves
(and mock others!)for the effects of a lack
of nurturing and attentiveness.

How much easier is it for one to 'melt'
unto Self/God, when one has experienced
a 'melting' into the safe, accepting, and
loving arms and hearts of parents, friends
or spouse?

For some, maybe no difference.

For others? Maybe all the difference in
the world.


Xan:

I'm not so sure. I wonder if people
who feel satisfied in their lives by
being 'loved enough' have enough
hunger and drive to pursue the truth
of love of Self through all the challenges
that presents. At least in our time.

Someone said it was Nisargadatta.
I heard it was Papaji. Maybe both
said, "Without suffering in the world
no one would search for Truth."

Melody:

Before the tornado, Dorthy may had been
discouraged from beginning her journey if
she had felt loved and supported in her
daily life.

Once her journey began the love and support
she found along the way was not enough to
deter her from her Walk, though. On the
contrary, that encouraging support and caring
became the fuel that helped propel her along the
way. She surely would have had a tough time
walking that Walk if she had not aligned herself
with the characters she came face to face
with along the way. But before they could help
her, they each had a basic need that had to
be met.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Merton on 'Love':


"Love, of course, means something much more than mere
sentiment, much more than token favours and perfunctory
almsdeeds. Love means an interior and spiritual identification with one's
brother, so that he is not regarded as an "object" to "which" one "does
good."
The fact is that good done to another as to an
object is of little or no spiritual value.

Love takes one's neighbour as one's other self, and
loves him with all the immense humility and discretion
and reserve and reverence, without which no one can presume to enter into
the sanctuary of another's subjectivity. From such love all authoritarian
brutality, all exploitation, domineering and
condescension must necessarily be absent."

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