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ON THE SHOULDERS OF GIANTS?

Tim:
<SNIP>
Did the Buddha stand on the shoulders of others? Did Sri Ramana
Maharshi? Did Jesus?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

damn straight they did.You think they didnt have help?
......matthew
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

How can you be so sure? If there was a first then who helped the
first realise. Primitive peoples often say they learnt in their
dreams which herbs would heal and then there's trial and error.
Perhaps ancient beings were originally born realised, experimented
with the wonders of fantasizing and slid down hill ever since. You
know the senario, may it should have been called the apple of
fantasy :-).

skye
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

....i don't know how, but i am sure.

....Help isn't always that linear

....matthew
~~~~~~~~~~~~

You mean help might have come multidimentionally or laterally, like
jesus may not have ascended, he may have gone side ways....just
kidding :-) But your saying HELP did come some way, huh?

But perhaps only a psychological being can imagine it is a lone self
needing help and imagining it coming from some place apart from
itself. Otherwise there is no help! the cosmos looks after itself?

skye
~~~~~~~~~~~~

~ So skye, you are assuming that help for realization
must come from physically manifested beings?
I know you know better than that. ;-)

love
xan
~~~~~~~~~~~~

The concept of standing on shoulders is linear, and
spiritual growth isn't linear. Whether the three mentioned
gentleman had 'help', yes, and help could come in any form.

The concept seems to apply to research, where a researcher
can proceed from where others have stopped. Even in that
case creative people can do things upon those shoulders that
no shoulders can take credit for.

Things happen in the moment -- shoulders or no shoulders --
and if all conditions are right those things, such as
insight into the nature of reality, become valued, attended
to, and made available as a quality of human being in a
world which may or may not be receptive.

Jerry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I wouldn't know. i wasn't there. Maybe they did not need help at that time.
maybe the things we are chasing now were quite natural at that time. It
seems very difficult to know how it was then as it is equally
difficult/impossible to know how things will be (or not) in the future.

just a thought
Hans
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The question is suggesting that an individual could be
independent of its destiny - as if a magical hand, bypassing
the law of karma, would draw one out of duality. Therefore the
original question is irrelevant as individual and karma cannot
be separated. One could just as well have asked "would there
have been a Buddha if Gautama would have been born in medieval
Europe?"

Jan
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

All I can say to those involved in this discussion is - stand on all
the shoulders you like! If you think this will lead to "standing
alone" or "standing free," then depend on others (externals) and be
happy.

If your vision is clear and Grace is manifest as the "inner Guru,"
there are no shoulders to stand on. In fact, there is nothing to
stand on, not even one's own shoulders. The ground drops out from
beneath.

Love to everyone,

Tim
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Physical or no physical, manifested or no manifested...

"Help" is a thing of the past, and the past exists not.

I am beyond hope, help or comfort. There is no salvation for me. I
am already dead.

I am utterly alone and in strange territory, behind foreign lines,
and there is nobody who dares to undertake a rescue mission. Let
anyone do so, and they will simply find themselves in the
identical "predicament."

Let those who wish to dispute it do so. It is a waste of time.

Tim
________________________________________________________________________________\
______

NO SAFE PLACE


Gene: <snip>
I would like to point out that since Jerry began active moderation,
we are free to express ourselves in any way we like, as long as we do
not 'personally attack'. It seems to be taking a while for this
change to sink in. As I see it, we are now able to 'safely' post
anything, including things that before, would have certainly elicited
a mocking, sarcastic reply from someone.


Melody:

Rather than try so hard to create a truly 'safe' place,
I'd rather we create the space that seizes opportunities
whenever they present themselves.

Such a place could use 'active moderation' as well....

but just a different 'form' of 'active moderation' than
the type of moderation referred to above.

We cannot 'put a lid on' mocking and sarcasm and contempt

....not for more than a few weeks....

without someone, somewhere
blowing a fuse.

Rather than continuing to toss out anyone who
breaks the rules, another form 'active moderation'
might take is to USE the antagonism and the
conflict ....as a vehicle for clearing the way for
the nondual perspective........ not only for some
individual, but for the collective, as well.

Such work, however, would require active
participation from those very individuals who
tend to stay silent during such times.

I would love to witness/and or participate
in such a work should the opportunity
ever present itself.

Melody
________________________________________________________________________________\
______


BEING LIGHT/LIGHTBEING


Dear Tim,
you wrote:

>In a way I can't explain (but will attempt to anyway, perhaps
>foolishly), you are my guru. Not in the sense of the Eastern guru,
>as a "role," but rather, in the heart.

Thanks, Tim-ji. I appreciate you sharing your awareness of resonance.
Resonance is felt here, as well. The "guru" is the
resonance itself, and is the no-thingness that allows
and is resonance.

>Your words have often brought
>me to wonderment, astonishment and clarity, in fact have often
>dissolved "me" in the bliss that is only This. Your posts (most of
>them?) are clearly selfless, choiceless and driven by love.

If words brought wonder and clarity, then such words have
served as play of One. They arose, catalyzed, then
dissolved joyfully.

"Direct
>transmissions" from "your" heart to "mine" have often occured. Such
>things are choiceless. I sense "we" are both out of the loop.

Yes, I've experienced this as well. And language can't really convey
it. As you say, "we" isn't, yet "what is" is.

>"Your" Presence (which is "my" Presence) abides timelessly in the
>heart. We are truly One. What better definition of "guru?"

Yes, One is, beyond being or nonbeing.
"Me" here and "you" there are projections as self-openings,
resonances of One with and from Self. If "guru" is bringer of Light
and ending of darkness, bringer of Awareness and ending of ignorance,
then "guru" is only One being One, the movement that is no-movement,
bringing One to One without anything brought. One ever-present,
timelessly beyond being present or absent.

Blessings
Love,

Dan
________________________________________________________________________________\
______

DEEP BODY RELAXATION


I used to teach Yoga classes in my early twenties to make a living. After the
Hatha
Yoga sequence was
done, students were led through deep body relaxation in Shava Asana (the corpse
pose
where everyone lies
down and relaxes). After a while, it seemed to me that for many people that was
the
favorite part of the class.

Over the years, I have come to feel that the best posture for meditation is not
the
Lotus posture as many yoga
traditions claim, but simply lying down in Shava Asana. The sleeping posture is
universal and sets no high bar
for anyone to have to overcome. Therefore, it is the perfect posture for
attaining
Self-Realization. Deep body
relaxation can be mastered by anyone slowly and has immense physical and
spiritual
benefits.

Of course, Hatha Yoga is important for many people and sitting in meditation
with a
straight spine has its own
health and energy oriented benefits. For many people who cannot sit cross
legged,
sitting straight on a chair
with support for the elbows is helpful.

If one is serious about meditation and relaxation and practices it, slowly one
discover what postures and
practices are the most helpful. Deep body relaxation seems to be universally
attractive, because it allows for
letting go. It is easy to learn and do and with experience becomes natural.


Harsha

Please click below to join HarshaSatsangha.

http://www.onelist.com/subscribe/HarshaSatsangh
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


It is noted in the most ancient of texts, that 'meditating' while in
the horizontal, tends to put one to sleep _permanently_.

I have noted that this instruction or admonition seems to be very
true. I have observed that those who are in emotional turmoil or
pain, prefer to sleep, rather than be conscious. Meditating while
lying down in horizontal position seems to be very attractive to
those who are invested in a lifestyle of avoidance/denial.

Contrast this to the practice of meditating while standing naked
under a cold waterfall; or to the practice of meditating while
walking or running.

Habituating oneself to meditation under any conditions, makes
meditation synonymous with those conditions. It is good to meditate
(if one is in the practice of meditation) in all situations, starting
with the least challenging. Unfortunately, "meditating" while
reclining or horizontal, is not only not a challenge, but may
instead, convey the illusion of meditation, thus satisfying the urge
to 'self-improvement' while no improvements are actually being made.

I am sorry if this seems a bit blunt or confrontational, but in this
case, I could not let this one slip by.

I warn against being lulled to sleep by warm, sentimental,
hypnotically suggested 'practices' which counteract natural alertness!

Kindest regards,

==Gene Poole==
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hi Gene.

You are quite right that it is easy to fall asleep in Shava Asana or by
lying down. Your comments perhaps reflect your experience and observations
and thanks for sharing them.

The practices and the posture one is attracted to depends on one's inherent
tendencies.

Consciousness has no posture.

Self may be realized in any posture including Shave Asana.

Harsha

________________________________________________________________________________\
______

AHIMSA

Hans:

Glo, what does ahimsa mean ?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~Oh, I can say well enough to help you get the joke. It's an "eastern term,"
I think sanskrit, for the principle of non-violence. It has come to stand for
non-harming, by thought, word, or deed. This is a noble aspiration or
intention, a guiding principle for behavior, and the interpretation of how to
actually implement this, say by some rigid rules, may cause many
controversies.
________________________________________________________________________________\
______

BODY BODY WHERE'S THE BODY?

> Hi jerry,
>
> Do you believe being detached from the body is nonduality?

Hi Skye,

I believe that being detached from the body is nonduality,
especially since the crazy mind can remain intact, but it
allows a person to see themself as something beyond the
body. It gives a glimpse, especially if the detachment is
literal, such as an out of the body experience.

I don't believe that nonduality is about detachment or
disconnection. I don't believe it's about connection either.
It's about a moment so fine and strong that nothing can
disconcert it because nothing can find it. It renders the
body invisible. It is both 'infinite and unbound' as M says.
It is everywhere and everything yet cannot be found.

Being detached from the body may bring a person to that, to
nonduality. But it's not That.

Jerry
________________________________________________________________________________\
______

ACRONYMICRY

LOL - laughing out loud
EO - enlightened one
NEO - not an enlightened one, or newly enlightened one - take your pick
BS - bullshit or big smirk
PHD - piled high and deep, as well as various other creative suggestions
MSW - master of social work, or Mary seems wonderful
ROFLMAO - rolling on the floor laughing my ass off
LOFGRAO - lying on the floor getting rolfed all over
DWTMICMWYW - don't worry too much, it can mean what you want
ETERNAL - Each Time Each Rerun Never Actually Lives
DREAM - Drama Reaches Existence Appealing Mentally
WHOLE - Whatever Happens Only Love Exists
ALL - Absolutely Loving Love
NONE - Nobody Once Never Existed
YOU - You're Only Unique
I - Impossible

ALL or NONE,
Eternally yours,
Dan

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