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(An interesting, ongoing discussion between
Dan and Ivan continues this week in the Salon.
It is a discussion that doesn't lend itself to
digesting very well, so I offer a 'snippet'...
and invite those interested in hearing more to
visit the archives of the Nonduality Salon to
read more.....)


Dan: Just as an aside, I'm remembering that in Norse mythology, Odin the
One-Eye (and most powerful god) had two ravens named Thought and Memory.
Thought, to me, includes memory. Thought is active in the encoding of
memory, as well as searching the "memory data bank," the retrieval of
memory, and its application in relation to sense perception. This occurs
moment to moment, includes the organization of perceptible forms, as well
as operations upon these forms to achieve desired ends (anything from a
paycheck to a meal to a friendship, etc.)

Ivan: I just want to stress that the brain functions as partly
described above (such as recognising objects, driving a car),
are nescessary and non-disturbing. These instinctual functions
are usefull, otherwise we would have to learn any basic behavior
on and on again -- we wouldn't even recognise a wife :^)
We are concerned with that function of thought/brain that
is responsable for the apearence of the center, making one
to be in the field of centered-awareness.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: bobbays@webtv.net (Bob Bays):

My first encounter (of three) with Krishnamurti affords a good example
of a universal characteristic of Awakened Ones - the ability to read at
a glance just where anyone is coming from:

K. was standing outside the tent after a talk, greeting those who lined
up to shake his hand and perhaps exchange a word or two. At that time I
was absolutely in awe of the man, and therefore rather "out of it." As I
approached him his hand was extended to shake mine, but when our eyes
met, without saying a word he gently withdrew his hand with a smile and
waved me on. The later encounters were cordial and showed a wonderful
gentleness and compassion.

One more little note: Krishnamurti almost never used the first person
pronoun, usually referring to himself as "the speaker," "one" or simply
"K."

OM shantih,

Bob

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yes. Thank you, Bob. I'll share something extremely nondual
about Krishnamurti's teaching that I came across 20 years
ago and that influenced me. I don't have a quote, but he
said that truth lies in transformation, in 'process', not in
attainment, not in the final state. It's extremely nondual
to say that the final fulfillment is beyond truth, but it's
not that either. You can't talk about it.

Jerry

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Also from Jerry:

This is an oldy but a goody from my website:

Nonduality of Whitman: The Song of Myself Re-arrangement

Each poem, separate by a dotted line, is actually a composite of two or
more passages from Whitman's Song of Myself.

----------

This is the grass that grows wherever the land is and the water is,

This is the common air that bathes the globe.

The atmosphere is not a perfume....it has no taste of the

distillation....it is odorless,

It is for my mouth forever....I am in love with it,

I do not know it....it is without name....it is a word unsaid,

It is not in any dictionary or utterance or symbol.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

I exist as I am, that is enough,

If no other in the world be aware I sit content,

And if each and all be aware I sit content.

The suns I see and the suns I cannot see are in their place.

The palpable is in its place and the impalpable is in its place.

And will never be any more perfection than there is now,

Nor any more heaven or hell than there is now.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
---

All forces have been steadily employed to complete and

delight me,

Now I stand on this spot with my soul.

My foothold is tenoned and mortised in granite,

I laugh at what you call dissolution,

And I know the amplitude of time.

I have no mockings or arguments....I witness and wait

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------

I heard what was said of the universe,

Heard it and heard of several thousand years;

It is middling well as far as it goes....but is that all?

This day before dawn I ascended a hill and looked at the

crowded heaven,

And I said to my spirit, When we become the enfolders of

those orbs and the pleasure and knowledge of every

thing in them, shall we be filled and satisfied then?

And my spirit said No, we level that lift to pass and

continue beyond.

What is known I strip away....I launch all men and

women forward with me into the unknown.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----

The insignificant is as big to me as any,

What is less or more than a touch?

I am an acme of things accomplished, and I an encloser

of things to be.

I find letters from God dropped in the street, and every one

is signed by God's name,

And I leave them where they are, for I know that others

will punctually come forever and ever.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

from Ivan:

How strange is this. When a person sees through the self,
the images, the imagined purposes of oneself and one's
everchanging but ever important motives in life -- when all
that is done and out.....then the real purpose of being comes
forth....and in its irrefutable real exence comes a message:
-- "unknown".

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have been contemplating for a long time the
nonseparation of self and other. Many posts
here and other places have been helpful in this.
Now, I'm wondering. Perhaps it's time for me
to focus on separating myself from everything.
If I can really manage to separate myself from
all this and act as an independent agent,
everything will still be as nondual as it ever was, won't it?
Signed,
Bored with being nonseparate

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There comes a time when what
we don't want yields to what we
do want; when what we think is
nonseparation yields to wholeness.
It's inevitable.

Xan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Marcia offered:

From "Four Quartets" by T.S. Eliot


We shall not cease from exploration

And the end of all our exploring

Will be to arrive where we started

And know the place for the first time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Tim Gerchmez <fewtch@eskimo.com>


Dear List,

I find myself walking on Holy Ground today. For years I have covered up
myself against the abuse of my father in childhood, hidden in rage and
bitterness and sadness. Today I see for the first time (deeply, not
mentally) who my father really is, and I realized that I love him deeply.
He has changed greatly since those earlier years, and so have I. I realize
that underneath the sometimes egotistical, harsh and judgmental personality
lies an innocent person, a child, who delights in nature and in animals,
and who writes poetry (which I hear is pretty darned good). I didn't even
know my father wrote poetry until recently. Imagine that... living 35
years and not knowing your own father was a poet...

Holding this love for my father, I find that the Shiva/Shakti within me is
at last united. I see now that underneath EVERYONE, from the saint to the
mass murderer, lies a tender, innocent and vulnerable soul, which has only
defended itself against the circumstances it found itself in as best it
could. I can see the Divinity in everyone, and in EVERYTHING. It is so
childlike and vulnerable... innocent, delighting in everything It sees,
loving everyone so deeply... and the friction of this world has covered
this vulnerable self in almost everyone with layers of defenses.

That's why I say I walk on Holy Ground today. Shiva and Shakti can unite
within me at last. I hated the Shiva within me for a long time. Now I
love Him unconditionally.

OM Shanti OM Shanti Shanti,

Tim

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


The following have been added to the Nonduality.com website. Thanks to Bob
Bays and Bruce Morgen for suggestions.
----------

Franklin Merrell-Wolff

1.Consciousness-without-an-object is.
2.Before objects were Consciousness-without-an-object is.
3.Though objects seem to exist Consciousness-without-an-object is.
4.When objects vanish yet remaining through all unaffected
Consciousness-without-an-object is.
5.Outside of Consciousness-without-an-object nothing is.
----------

Sri Ranjit Maharaj.

"The Deer who runs all day long after a mirage in search of water feels
unlucky when the sun sets. Man also strives hard all life long for the
illusive happiness, and dies in misery. All human beings think that they
get happiness from other objects or persons, but that is not true."
----------

Added Jim Moore's What To Know About Karma, to the Karma page.

----------

Chetana published the original I Am That, by Nisargadatta. They also
published Krishnamurti back in the 50's. For those of you having a hard
time getting a copy of I Am That, they claim to be selling them for only
$17U.S. There's some good stuff on the forum though hardly anyone goes
there. It's an undiscovered beach.


Chetana Spiritual Forum.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Xanma@aol.com

from Chuangtse (a Taoist):

"The knowledge of the ancients was perfect.
How perfect? I will tell you. At first they did
not yet know that there were things. This is
the most perfect knowledge; nothing can be
added. Next they knew things but did not yet
make distinctions between them. Next they
made distinctions between them but did not
yet pass judgements upon them. When judge-
ment was passed, Tao was destroyed. With
the destruction of Tao, individual preferences
come into being.

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