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JODY STARTS US OFF TALKING ABOUT H_R:

God is one crazy Lady. You just can't
expect anything from Her in terms
we can understand as individual
beings, except Her love in our hearts.

MICHAEL: She sure is a complicated lady! Glad she has all of that
unconditional love going!
HAHAHAHA and HOHOHOHO!

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thread: "Marcia/no time like the present"

MARSHA AND XAN:

MARSHA: The machine part of us is very interesting. Some of the programs
run just fine. I have a good professional role. I can just plug it in
and let it run. I don't have to pay much attention to it all. In this
scene the mechanical aspect is an energy saving mechanism.
Some of the other programs don't run so hot.

XAN: I've been listening with interest to your fruitful self
explorations. I hope you don't mind my 2 cents being laid down in here.

May I suggest that your other programs are actually running perfectly as
they were established. It is the fact that they are running on old data
that makes them not so successful. Because our mind is programable - a
memory function - as children most of us developed emotional survival
strategies that became our programs of response to specific situations
and continue to run even when those situations are long gone.

That is not new information, I'm sure, but looking at it this way,
simply as obsolete data, can give a fresh start. I used to work with
people in directly updating these vintage parts of the subconscious mind
so that they could give up their archaic ways and respond freshly in the
present, rather than acting as if the present was the past. Poor things
don't even know that you have grown up and are successful in so many
ways.

As with a computer program, it does no good to wish these mind programs
would change, to analyze them or to manipulate them. One must go into
where the erroneous data is and change it there.
with love

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Thread: "The Heart's Counting Knows Only One"

GIL OFFERS POEM BY JANE HIRSHFIELD:

The Heart's Counting Knows Only One

In Sung China,
two monks friends for sixty years
watched the geese pass.

Where are they going?
one tested the other, who couldn't say.

That moment's silence continues.

No one will study their friendship
in the koan-books of insight.
No one will remember their names.

I think of them sometimes,
standing, perplexed by sadness,
goose-down sewn into their quilted autumn robes.

Almost swallowed by the vastness of the mountain, but not yet.

As the barely audible
geese are not yet swallowed;
as even we, my love, will not entirely be lost.

DAN RESPONDS:

Beautiful, Gill.
Really right "there".
Thank you so much.
It reminds me of Jimi Hendrix
who said something
similar, but
more in the vein of rock,
and with less silence :-) ...
"Will the wind ever remember,
the names it has blown in the past?
And this old age, with its heartbreak
and its wisdom...
It whispers, "no, this will be the last."
And the wind cries "Mary".

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thread: "Instructiions for Life, by the Dalai Lama"

HIS HOLINESS JOINS NDS DISCUSSION - VIA JAMES

Ed. Note: Somehow i just can not imagine the Dalai Lama using expression
"with reckless abandon."

FROM THE DALAI LAMA:

I N S T R U C T I O N S F O R L I F E

1. Take into account that great love and great achievements involve
great risk.

2. When you lose, don't lose the lesson.

3. Follow the three R's:
- Respect for self
- Respect for others and
- Responsibility for all your actions.

4. Remember that not getting what you want is sometimes a wonderful
stroke of luck.

5. Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.

6. Don't let a little dispute injure a great friendship.

7. When you realize you've made a mistake, take immediate steps to
correct it.

8. Spend some time alone every day.

9. Open your arms to change, but don't let go of your values.

10. Remember that silence is sometimes the best answer.

11. Live a good, honorable life. Then when you get older and think back,
you'll be able to enjoy it a second time.

12. A loving atmosphere in your home is the foundation for your life.

13. In disagreements with loved ones, deal only with the current
situation. Don't bring up the past.

14. Share your knowledge. It's a way to achieve immortality.

15. Be gentle with the earth.

16. Once a year, go someplace you've never been before.

17. Remember that the best relationship is one in which your love for
each other exceeds your need for each other.

18. Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

19. Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thread: [simply this]

JOHN OFFERS FINE QUOTE BY ANONYMOUS - HEY, I THOUGHT JERRY BANNED ANON
FROM THE LIST!:

Of all the powers granted a seeker,
of all the gifts, of all the secrets, of all the miracles by far the
most potent, extraordinary, and wondrous
is simply this --

the power to love one another
unconditionally
right now
regardless of whatever else we may be doing regardless of whatever else
we might prefer to be doing regardless of whatever else we wish the
other were doing

This is how Jesus loves,
This is how Ramakrishna loves,
This is how the Buddha loves,
This is how Rumi loves
This is how the Mother loves

This greatest power of them all is not about visions and auditions,
clairvoyance, teleportation, or telekinesis, prophesy, astrology,
numerology, and palmistry fire walking or walking on water

Neither is it about health wealth and happiness All of that is kid's
stuff
compared to this one

The Teacher said it,
clearly and unmistakably,
"This I command you, to love one another"
Nothing about when it's convenient,
or under certain circumstances,
or in special places
No ifs, no ands, no buts
No excuses, no exceptions
Simply, do it
love one another
walk the walk
---anonymous

Simple, huh? Some days I can only manage to crawl....LOL John

JODY: That talk would be a tremendous walk, and it points to the
difference between the realized and the enlightened.

I must confess to a convenient disregard of this axiom at times. Not in
order to hurt anyone, but as a way to express frustration.

It requires vigilance to remember that there is no "one" to be annoyed,
so quick is the reaction in the mind.

Perhaps next time I get cut off on the freeway I'll be blessed to
remember to ask myself, "who is annoyed?"

It is the realization that there is nobody to be angry that allows
unconditional love to run unobstructed in one's life.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thread: " From dictionary to manual"

SKYE RESPONDS TO HANS:

SKYE: Just playing with more ideas here ;-) so please don't take it as a
knock, this is just something i've always wondered.
you wrote

[snip]....I also see that
this concept is just another concept amongst many other concepts. The
totality of it however makes my understanding clearer and clearer that
there
is nothing that you can *do* because whatever you think, it will be a
concept and nothing more than that. On the other hand, i feel that some
concepts are useful (for the time being)

SKYE: won't it be a laugh if we find out upon leaving the
body, that the whole cosmos *IS An Eternal Idea* and plans to stay that
way. And that what we thought was "nothing more than another concept
amongst many other concepts that are only useful (for the time being)"
actually hold an enormous element of truth and that our concepts spring
from a living pulsing indestructible psychological CONCEPT that is more
real than any of our primitive imaginings of nonexistence and ideas of
nonexperience. And that we've been wasting our time here in 3D trying to
find out whats behind IT while IT has absolutely no interest in
nonexistent origins, been there done that, and is now eternally busy
timelessly expanding and multiplying psychologically its vibrant wisdom
and radiant love. In fact denizens of other earthly spheres maybe
mourning the loss of our creative 3D mental contributions to this
laborious mental regression of ours and have been waiting patiently for
eons for us to snap out of this second illusion, this petit mort, this
no thing, no concept game and start exploring the some REAL concepts
:-)
Just a thought.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thread: "Skye/Just a question"

DAN AND SKYE MAKIN' LOVE IN PUBLIC AGAIN - IT"S SO EMBARRASING:

DAN: My view, expressed in words, yet knowing that beyond words is
Reality.

SKYE: Okay, but to me words are not beyond reality they are but one of
the infinite varieties of vocabulary within all that is. To me words are
but one form of concrete thought, graphic images mathematical symbols,
the cells of the body, molecules, time space motion, receptivity
conductivity vibration, hearing touch sight taste smell perception, all
are vocabularies, words of another form to me.

DAN (continuing): There's something that the mind can't reach, that
can't be thought. That something is "that" with no opposition.

SKYE: To a being locked into night and day, hot and cold, life and
death, yes it might ponder (with its mind :-) that there might be a
realm it can't reach. But thats all it can do, ponder with the 3D brain,
there is no possibility of pondering something that the mind can't reach
without that brain. So one gets on with life and laughter. It is here in
relation to all things that opposition disappears Here and Now not
somewhere that the mind can not reach.

DAN (continuing):
Thought and sense depend on something being opposed by something else.
That which has no opposition isn't opposed to thought or sense. It
simply can't be comprehended by thought or sense. It doesn't interfere
with them, in fact gives them life. It's both "infinitely bigger" and
"infinitely subtler"
than thought and sense.

SKYE: Thought and sense also depend on vibrations relating. Nonduality
reveals its same essential law of synthesis in every opposed or non
opposed realm, it is not beyond them, it is not lacking, obscured,
opposed or obstructed just because you have thought which has taken the
form of words, images or feelings.

DAN (continuing): It simply can't be comprehended by thought or sense.
It doesn't interfere with them, in fact gives them life. It's both
"infinitely bigger" and "infinitely subtler"
than thought and sense.

SKYE: And when one comes to that realisation then there seems no point
continuing this fruitless pondering with the cerebral cortex. One
harkens to the urge to create with it, as this radiant "infinitely
bigger" and "infinitely subtler" creates, rather than merely ponder what
cannot be known day after day. Why would one want to remain for the life
of the planet, a mankind (homo sapien) obsessed only in his own
realisation while his planet dies of neglect.

DAN (continuing): Once we talk about it, we necessarily present a
concept or an image. Whatever is presented can be countered by a
different concept or image. The mind can go back and forth from one
presentation to another. Or the mind can come to a point of "no return"
- a point where it can't look back, can't look ahead, can't speculate,
and can't even locate itself.

SKYE: dan your've been saying the same thing for 8 mths now, why, don't
you get bored? :-)

You are seeing things from the limited point of view of a human mind
only, so yes it will seem to " go back and forth from one presentation
to another". After all this repetition, still you have need of
convincing yourself further.

DAN (continuing): That point is pointed to, but never successfully. It's
indicated, but never by a true image. Sages have talked about it
forever, because
it's what's real, it's where all conflict and doubt are resolved.

SKYE: For me "doubt are resolved" here and now not when i have *wasted a
lifetime* studying my self or the Self i have always been.

DAN (continuing): I'm only sharing these ideas because they're what
occurred to me after I read your piece. I have no thought other than
that.

SKYE: But dan these ideas you have shared are no different to the ideas
of a beyond thought you have expounded (with thought) for months on end,
nothing i said has made you express an alternate idea.
I have no thought other than that.
Exactly, thats what i'm trying to say, we are nothing but psychological
concepts.

DAN: (continuing): Clearly, these are ideas. They're not "that" which is
beyond ideas,

SKYE: That? That what? how can you ponder "that" which is beyond ideas,"
without your brain? I'm wondering whether we *and the creator* are all
concepts and percepts no matter how much we might try to fantasise
otherwise.

DAN: (continuing): contrasts, comparison, or separation.
"That" won't be found in thought, speculation, sensory data, nor in the
meanings created by thought.

SKYE: My point was that you may find on leaving the body you're still
using another form of sense data. We do not have the whole enchilada. We
may be quite surprised to find that we are so slow in vibration that
"That" which can't be found in thought, speculation, sensory data, nor
in the meanings created by thought", is not meant to be the issue at all
for us. All that is may have plans for your essence that has nothing to
do with "something that the mind can't reach". IT may even fill you with
an energy that makes you go 180°in the opposite direction.

DAN: (contining) Once I say this, you can counter, "Yes, but what if
'that' is in thought, is in all thought, and thought is everything." But
what is it that isn't said by either of us - what is it that can't be
countered, that has no opposite, and therefore no position?

SKYE: Life itself dan, getting out there and living and loving here and
now. THAT is what has no opposition.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thread: "Glo/Remove the truth"

NOW DAN TAKES ON GLORIA - THAT LAD SURE GETS AROUND!

IT ALL STARTED WHEN GUSTY JODY AMENDED GLO'S QUOTE FROM RAMANA MAHARSHI:

RAMANA: "Similarly we have simply
to throw out all the age-long samskaras [innate tendencies] which are
inside us. When all of them have been given up, the Self will shine
alone."
-
JODY: I would amend the above thus:
When identification with the samskaras has been revealed and overcome,
the Self will shine alone.

The point I'm trying to make is that samskaras will continue to exist
after Moksha has occurred. It isn't the samskaras themselves that get in
the way, it is the identification with the samskaras that occlude.

GLO: If only this would work with my diet. I have disidentified with
those damn fat calories and still the little buggers do their worst! :)
Reality triumphs whether I identify with it or not. Amend that!
Some things do in fact have to be given up.. it's a bummer is what it
is. Glo

DAN: Give up....everything? Now that would be a hell of a diet.

GLO: Yeah, it was a silly example.. diet happens to be on my "to do
list." I admit I'd love to find a "weasel clause".. who wouldn't? And
not to say that is what jody is doing and I don't know exactly how jody
really means "only disidentify"...but still I would find it difficult to
know I had even begun to disidentify with my innate tendencies without
some sort of "Reality" check. Self deception itself being one of those
very innate tendencies. It's a tricky business this giving up. .. and
I'm in no place to be amending Ramana myself. Sometimes tho, the Self
does seem to shine through no matter what..and for that I am grateful.

What exactly are all these samskaras?? My understanding of untruth
undergoes constant remodeling.

DAN: Thanks for sharing this, Glo.
Words of wisdom, ringing true,
As truth, presented without
obligation to support
existing beliefs.
Especially this part rings very true:

"It is false to speak of realisation. What is there to realise? The real
is as it is always. We are not creating anything new or achieving
something which we did not have before."

Once an illustration is provided, we have a picture. A picture is simply
to help the mind form an image. The image will be discarded, perhaps for
another image,
perhaps for no image when the mind releases itself from its
images.

Once explained, something has been added. The explanation is for the
mind, to give it direction -
until it releases itself from its need for explanations,
hypotheses, proofs.
What is Alone, stands Alone, without explanation, cause, proof, or path.
Reality with no second.

To add anything just gives one more thing to be taken away :-)

As the real Alone is, talk about realizing it is deluded. As the real
Alone is, belief in lacking something is deluded. As the real Alone is,
belief in needing to get something is deluded.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thread: "who am I"

JOHN OFFERS MERTON ON ONE OF HIS HIGHER STORIES:

"The shallow "I" of individualism can be possessed, developed,
cultivated, pandered to, satisfied : it is the center of all our
strivings for gain and satisfaction, whether material or spiritual. But
the deep "I" of the spirit, of solitude and of love, cannot be "had,"
possessed, developed, perfected. It can only be, and act according to
deep inner laws which are not of man's contriving, but which come from
God. They are the Laws of the Spirit, who, like the wind, glows where He
wills. This inner "I," who is always alone, is always universal : for in
this inmost "I" my own solitude meets the solitude of every other man
and the solitude of God. Hence it is beyond division, beyond limitation,
beyond selfish affirmation.

JOHN: I bow to You all my brothers and sisters who *are* this undivided
Self... Thanks for sharing That which points to transcending mere
contrivance. love,

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Thread: "The Pope's Apology to the Gnostics"

JAMES LOOKING FOR ALL THE APOLOGY:

Ed Note: Yeah, i would like to read the whole thing, too. Surely on list
of "we apologize for" is Sister Mary Elizabeth who taught third grade at
St. Ailbe's in Chicago, back in 193_, and wielded one mean ruler on
heretic hag.

JOHN: Does anyone on the list know if the Pope's recent apology is
posted somewhere on the internet???
Recently saw posted on a newsgroup an
excerpt from the Pope's recent apology which contained the following:

Vatican City, 3.15.00, 8:00 AM [Associated Press] -- In a dramatic move
today, Pope John Paul II, addressing the planet's Roman Catholic
population via live satellite broadcast from his specially equipped
popemobile, apologized to "gnostics and heretics" the world over for the
"terrible sins of persecution and repression" carried out against "our
heterodox brethren in Christ."

"Theodosius was wrong to pass laws which made heresy a capital crime,"
said the octegenarian Master of Caremonies,.......

"The Holy Roman Emperor should never have stamped out such groups as the
Carpocratians, Barbelognostics, Sethians, Archontics, Phibionites,
Valentinians and Basilideans. What good is the body of Christ without an
arm, a thumb or a nose?"

The aging pope also sharply criticized heresiological saints Irenaeus
and Hippolytus, vowing to "investigate this fraud whereby narrow-minded
censors are canonized in defiance of reason and common decency."

Ed Note: Woooeeee....

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
love,
oh

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