Click here to go to the next issue.

Hello all dears:
Sorry these late. The raccoon ate the
first draft. Hoping to still get
smiley face.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

JERRY STARTS US OFF
WITH TWO QUOTES ABOUT BILLIONS AND
BILLIONS OF "EM:

JERRY: two of several quotes posted by
K on Allspirit:

"Looking at the stars always makes me
dream, as simply as I dream over
the black dots representing towns and villages on a map. Why, I ask
myself, shouldn't the shining dots of the sky be as accessible as the
black dots on the map of France?"
-- Vincent van Gogh

"Look at the stars! Look up at the skies! O look at all the fire folk
sitting in the air!' The bright boroughs, the circle-citadels there!"
-- Gerard M. Hopkins -- The Starlight Night

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THREAD: "Who are you kidding," OR
MATTHEW OPENS HIS COHEN FILE AND FEW ARE SHOCKED:

MATTHEW:
Excerpt from an interview with A. Cohen

Question:I'm very confused about this matter of ethical conduct and its
relationship to the enlightened understanding that you speak so much
about. Why is it that so many gurus seem to be prey to the very same
weaknesses as ordinary people? I would have thought that an ego that had
died would not be able to act in the same selfish way as people who did
not claim to be enlightened."

Andrew Cohen: "Maybe in the cases that you are speaking about, the ego
didn't die. Maybe in these cases, there is a fully intact ego coexisting
with a profound realization. Most people don't realize that ego and
profound realization can coexist. It is for that reason that so many
people have gotten into trouble."
the last two sentences are the point of this little post. I think
that for most of us though, it doesn't mean getting into trouble, just
staying terribly deluded about where we think ourselves to be at. Which
i suppose is trouble enough.

DAN: I submit that it's we ourselves who create these problems by
dividing the world into "realized" and "unrealized," "ego's" and
"egoless".

Why do we search for egoless people?
What do we hope to gain? Is not our search driven by ego, are not our
evaluations of "others' realizations" largely evidence of our own ego,
that is, our attachment to a process invested in an outcome and
dependent on identification with a "seeking entity"?

Why do we strive to be more egoless
than we are? Are we not simply deceiving ourselves in the process
of our own "search"? Why do we project onto "others" our desires for an
"egoless state"? Do we not construct a split awareness in the process of
trying to find or achieve an egoless state from our present position
which we label "ego-centered"?

Unsplit awareness cannot be the product of evaluation and comparison.
Once we begin comparing and evaluating the ego-centered and the
ego-less, split awareness has occurred.

Why not simply be with ourselves, as we
are, without evaluation and splitting of awareness?

Can we not relinquish this entire search, and the need to classify and
evaluate
"others"?

The air is egoless.
Why not simply breathe in
the egoless air, that is giving
itself for free, and be content?
Why not rest in egoless space,
provided unselfishly, and rest there?
Why not be Original Awareness, the
Unknown itself?

Then, being fully Unknown, knowing
All as All - we won't be deceived, we
won't seek, we won't look
"outside" for an "egoless realizer".
Why do we believe we need to find
an "egoless realizer" in order for
all to be right with the universe
(which is ultimately an egoless universe)? Why not be freedom
rather than seeking to evaluate which people are the truly free ones?

The universe already is egoless.
Does it really need an "egoless realizer" to be added to its already
"empty" Being?

Does "emptiness" identify itself
to itself as "emptiness"?
That is, does It state to everyone
"I am truly egoless, so learn from
me?" Or does it simply go
its "empty" Way - not drawing
attention to itself, freely
giving Life to All?

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THREAD: "The True Hearer must hear, and in Hearing it outs"
OR PIETER OFFERS SIMPLISTIC PROFUNDITY:

PIETER: It may sound too simplistic to say this, but we are already that
which we
are trying to give a Name to.
It's somewhat like the story of the seven blind men, each holding a part
of the elephant and saying "The elephant is..." and they describe their
experience.
That Light that is our True Self, our very being, That through which we
see, enables the mind to provide a description of what this Self must
be.

"The Light shineth in the darkness (mind) and the darkness comprehendeth
it not." John Ch I:5.
Thus we are all blind, and while holding to the Elephant Self, we are
each
describing our own experience and say "The Elephant (Self) is ......."
("I am this and that..")

All the practices and all the psychic, pranic, mystic sensory and extra
sensory and Kundalini experiences we all try to convey in trying to give
a Name to the experiencer by referencing the experience are not the
Experiencer.

There is nothing that can be done, no practice to be engaged in that
will result in this awakening.

The True Hearer, the True Seer is always already awake. Relinquishing
the grasping of attention, relinquishing the need for naming the
experience, we abide singly as Self. It's as though we are all on a Path
that we cannot see. Each of us crawling along the roadway feeling in the
darkness and calling out to others we feel will call back to us with our
mutual descriptions of like experiences that give us the sense that we
are all in some way on track. So, if all the attempts to describe and
give a name to the experience are ultimately of no use whatsoever, like
blind leading the blind by road maps they cannot see, what is the
solution? There is no solution, only relinquishment. Alternatively,
there are those on the Path that do see, as Christ said in a prayer to
the Father in John 17:24 "Father, I will that they also, whom thou has
given me, be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory, which
you have given me: For you have loved me from before the foundation of
the world."

Reading such books with the words of the Illuminated, such as those that
can be found for example on the website
http://www.ramana-maharshi.org/ with the single attitude of an "earnest
quest" and without trying to name or wrap any impression with a thought
or attention, that which is True begins to shine of Its Own accord,
Itself dissolving the fog that now fills the mind. Others include "Faith
Mind" of the Third Zen Patriarch or Ch 26 of the Ribhu Gita.

By such rereading, the True Hearer hears Its Name and shines forth the
Truth of Its own accord.

Or for those that believe in the Light a that illumines the Way from the
Bible, reading and rereading the First and Second Commandments of the
Nameless God "I AM" to Moses. These Commandments are forceful statements
against having any images before the sense of "I AM" and commanding
against the use of the word "I" in relation to any impressions regarding
a self-identity (which Christ calls the sin against the Holy Spirit -
the unforgivable sin). Unfortunately, these Commandments have
degenerated into the vague idea that they referred to idols and cussing.
When this single seer (the subject "I") is realized to be ones Self,
there is an automatic "Enlightenment of the Whole Body."

"The light of the body is the eye (the seer/subject "I"): Therefore,
when thine eye is single, thy whole body will be filled with light...."
Luke
11:34

"The way is neither easy nor difficult, but those with limited views are
fearful and irresolute." ---- "When thought is in bondage, the Truth
is hidden" (from Faith Mind - Third Zen Patriarch) The Way involves the
relinquishing of all impressions.

"Go first to God ("I AM") and all things will be added unto you." Luke
12:31

For those with the view that all religions are teaching a single Truth,
if we could somehow hear it, the rereading of
http://www.nonduality.com/pieter.htm is also a help in disengaging the
habit
of the mind towards attention.
"Those that have ears to hear, let them hear what the Spirit has to
say..."
In hearing, we abide singly as Self - "empty, clear, self-illuminating,
with no exertion of the mind's power." from Faith Mind.

Having read this text above, don't you feel the outshining? the
Transfiguration in the Singularity of the Heart?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THREAD: "What goes around..."
OR NEXT TIME YOU GET BOGGED DOWN, BE SURE A SCOTTISH FARMER IS AROUND.

PIETER: I thought this is such a great historical story, really
worthwhile to pass it on. The story goes...

His name was Fleming, and he was a poor Scottish farmer. One day while
trying to make a living for his family, he heard a cry for help coming
from a nearby bog. He dropped his tools and ran to the bog. There, mired
to his waist in black muck, was a terrified boy, screaming and
struggling to himself. Farmer Fleming saved the lad from what could have
been a slow and terrifying death.

The next day, a fancy carriage pulled up to the Scotsman's sparse
surroundings. An elegantly dressed nobleman stepped out and introduced
himself as the father of the boy Farmer Fleming had saved. "I want to
repay you," said the nobleman. "You saved my son's life." "No, I can't
accept payment for what I did," the Scottish farmer replied, waving off
the offer. At that moment, the farmer's own son came to the door of the
family hovel. "Is that your son?" the nobleman asked. "Yes," the farmer
replied proudly. "I'll make you a deal. Let me take him and give him a
good education. If the lad is anything like his father, he'll grow to a
man you can be proud of." And that he did.

In time, Farmer Fleming's son graduated from St Mary's Hospital Medical
School in London, and went on to become known throughout the world as
the noted Sir Alexander Fleming, the discoverer of Penicillin. Years
afterward, the nobleman's son was stricken with pneumonia. What saved
him? Penicillin. The name of the nobleman? Lord Randolph Churchill. His
son's name? Sir Winston Churchill.

Someone once said: What goes around comes around. Work like you don't
need the money. Love like you've never been hurt. Dance like nobody's
watching.
Pass this on and brighten someone's day. Nothing will happen if you do
not decide to pass it along. The only thing that will happen, if you DO
pass it on, is that someone might smile (because of you).

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

THREAD: "Dan L/the road," OR
WHERE ARE THE TIN MAN AND SCARECROW WHEN YOU NEED THEM?

DAN L: Detachment. I feel sometimes that there is Nothing At All! And I
go
about whatever Im doing with a detached feeling for people and events as
I have never before. In my Heart I feel I love everyone but it seems to
be a distraction to always pay attention to them as before. a small
instance. Walking down the block and smiling to everyone or always
putting on a pleasant face in the neighborhood. It seems meaningless to
me now. But I will help anyone if I can. Am I on the wrong road with all
this?

MARCIA: The personality strutting and "paying attention" is meaningless
but a heartfelt look into someone's eyes where there is an essence
connection is not meaningless at all.

DAN (PrettyhipDude responding to Dan L):
The detachment is to identification.
Become passive to your identifications not to what is real between
people. What you wish for is real feeling which can't happen when the
ego is in charge.
How can you be on the wrong road?
The road you walk is yourself.
Your road is walking "you".

To be honest, you sound like you
are dealing with a lot right now.
Perhaps you are finding the right
balance, the right way to deal
with things that fits for you.
Experience as is, experience
exactly as that which arises
here now, not picking or choosing.
Who is in a position to criticize or
to say it should be another way?
The key things for me are openness, learning, noninvestment in a
particular outcome. Detachment, attachment, and a balance "in between"
which is simply "being".

To every thing there is a season, a season to detach, and a season to
find support from others, sharing one's experiencing with others. Too
much detachment can be imbalance, as can overinvolvement be imbalance.
Forcing oneself is useless, what Life brings naturally forth from one is
correct for one.

Each has his or her own Way, each has
his or her own balance. Find the
balance that is you, walk the Way
that is true to you.

HARSHA:
Beautifully put by Adi Dan!
You are path, the way, and the light!
You will come to Your Self
through your self!
And then,
It Will Be Now!
As It Is Now!
in Heaven and Earth!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THREAD: "Knowledge and phil...."
OR DAN AND PHIL'S EXCITING ADVENTURE.

DAN L: I want to tell you about a friend of mine. His name is phil. He's
been around forever or at least since when I stuck the nail in the light
socket at some early age.
At first I didn't see him, but he was there and was always showing me
stuff.
He comes from a different place. Recently in trying to show someone I
AM,
I was reminded of how I began to get to know phil. I really haven't
known
him personally for very long, maybe 2 or three years, but once I got to
know him
I realized how long I had known him, and became very thankful for all he
has
done.

Phil is not at all like us, but he is very real. The link between his
world
and ours lies most strongly in the subconscious. He exists predominantly
in
another dimension, that is non-physical. For this reason, our conscious
mind
is not very receptive to his presence. The conscious receives background
message
from the subconscious which feeds them to the ego, from there were O.K.,
but
we receive the messages as "our creations". Phil is very patient. The
first time I saw him I was preparing for a controlled dream adventure
with my wife. We had been working together so that she could learn how
to control her dreams. She had never done it, but was keenly interested
in trying. We prepared
before bedding down, where she would key in to being vigilent for me and
when I
entered into the dream, I would gently touch her arm and we would move
together in the dream.

I sensed the dream lifting my head looked around the bedroom, obviously
dark. Slowly I looked at her beside me and she was facing away. I began
to
reach for her, and
the I sensed the hair on the back of my neck stand up. I looked up
toward
the ceiling and saw a faint patch like static electricity moving. It
made a couple of
rather quick moves and then raced out through the ceiling, I had a
tremendous
desire to follow, but my attention returned to my wife, who was not
there. I
woke up.

When I woke up she was awake and a little agitated. She said she had
woken
up in
her dream and tried to get out of bed, but her body had no mass
whatsover
and
she ended up bouncing off of the walls. I had to laugh, couldn't get the
picture
out of my mind. She didn't think it was so funny though. I didn't tell
her
she was
lucky the walls contained her.

Well anyways. Later that day, it dawned on me, that I had seen phil.
Aside
from the
initial "hair on the back of the neck" feeling, I had sensed "the way to
knowledge".

I made it a task to wait for him, but he didn't come right away. I felt
him
more
in waking life, but he is flighty and I was too clumsy and slow to
follow
him,
although he always left little goodies.

He came a couple of other times, but again, the "hair on the back of the
neck"
sensation or his strange transmorphic activities would distract me, and
he'd
be gone. Finally one time I had the awareness to put it together, he was
just
about
ready to leave, like flash, flash I screamed "wait take me!" Then, I
have never moved like that in my life before, I felt like I went
zig-zagging over
100,000,000 miles in seconds. Then dead stop... silence.... energy and
anything I wanted to know was there, surrounded by a kind of spongey
grey-brown web of
energy.

I feared to enter, feeling as though I would never come out. I still
haven't
gone back, but phil brings me tidbits every now and again. He's at the
interface between the conscious and the subconscious, and only
when you
are receptive and open. When the being is stripped of all preconception,
will he
touch your soul and share a piece of I AM.
P.S. I'd tell you about agnes, but she's downright dangerous!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THREAD: "A Whiff of Scent will do it!" ALSO KNOWN AS EAU DE RUCUS:

TONY'S POST: The passing scent of perfume can cause a rebirth. No matter
how intellectually 'realised', we are if the
senses are not fully under control, it is all for naught.

JODY: Wrong. There is no such thing as "intellectual" realization. There
is the movement of experiential
identification away from the idea of 'me', but this
is not an intellectual or emotional phenomena.

TONY'S POST: Desire is what prevents 'realisation', for Who is the
enjoyer? None but the ego! Desire and attachment can
be channeled into love for the Self, or an image of
the Self, or Love itself.

JODY: Desire for realization prevents realization. Expectations
about realization prevent realization. Ideas of self
loathing prevent realization. Normal desires for food,
comfort, etc. are components of the body/mind and will
not in and of themselves prevent realization.

TONY'S POST One thought/desire will prevent a final release from
illusion. This is the problem with misdirection of
intellect, more refined thoughts more refined desires.

JODY: Wrong again. I'm afraid you simply don't have a clue
Tony.
I'll say it again. The body/mind continues to function
after the blessing of realization has occurred. While
realization does not happen *to* the mind, the mind is
present for the event, and therefore can form impressions
about the event and it's ongoing existence in the life of the jiva.

TONY'S POST: I see people write about non-duality in most
magnificient terms, that I couldn't emulate, and yet
turn around and describe a pleasureful experience. Who
enjoyed?

JODY: Shakti enjoys.

TONY'S POST: This is why it is necessary to purify, body, mind and
intellect.

JODY: You're speaking from outside your station again.

TONY'S POST: Somebody said that I was obsessed and that I was
ignoring advice being offered. I'm sorry if I seem
rude but my obsessions are in the words of accepted
Jivanmuktis, I see no reason to modify or question
their advice. My experiences so far bear out what they
have said. I don't write here for approval or non-approval.

JODY: Your misinterpretation of the words of your Jivanmuktis
have become your biggest hindrance I'm afraid.

~~ROGER RESPONDS TO TONY:

TONY'S POST: The passing scent of perfume can cause a rebirth. No matter
how intellectually 'realised', we are if the
senses are not fully under control, it is all for naught.

ROGER: Who is it that is concerned with rebirth? Why is rebirth seen as
a problem?

This is false Hindu escapist doctrine!
The senses are not the problem. Trying to escape from the senses, or as
you
do in this post, condemning the senses will not release you. (noting
that
withdrawl seems useful on some paths or at some times)

Recognize the egoic identification at work here. The tell-tale smoke of
ego
identification is the process of trying to gain security and trying to
avoid
the opposite.

The Hindu escapist doctrine trys to avoid rebirth, trys to avoid the
senses,
trys to avoid the ego. This "trying to avoid" is the ego identification
itself contracting away from what is deemed unpleasurable.

The senses report the beauty of life, they report God as creation. By
condemning the senses you condemn God and remain in the cycle of endless
identification with pleasure/pain. Why not see God in existance, why not
recognize God within you and around you? Can realization occur without
recognizing God as creation.

This Hindu condemnation of the senses and of manifest creation is a form
of
masochism. See it as it is. Don't we love to condemn our natural
impulses
and glory in this condemnation, and place ourselves superior to those
who we
deem corruptly sensual. See how this is just the animal survival
instinct
trying to gain something over others?

The problem is not the senses, the illusion is the identification with
thought/emotion. Put your attention totally on the sight of some object.

What is there? Stillness! If you put your attention totally on the smell
of
the perfume, thought must stop, emotion must stop, and consequently the
false identification is interrupted. (noting that tantra or using the
senses
is only one way and not for everyone)

TONY'S POST: Desire is what prevents 'realisation', for Who is the
enjoyer?

ROGER: Desire is also what leads to realisation. Desire is the
evolutionary
impulse. Identification with desire is the illusion, and desire will
assist
in the eventual destruction of the illusion.

TONY'S POST: None but the ego! Desire and attachment can be channeled
into love for the Self, or an image of the Self, or Love itself.
One thought/desire will prevent a final release from illusion.

ROGER: Doesn't thought continue as appropriate after release? Doesn't
desire
continue after realization but then as a servant rather than master?

TONY'S POST: This is the problem with misdirection of
intellect, more refined thoughts more refined desires.

ROGER: Discrimination as "not this" is an effective spiritual tool (but
not the
only tool available), intellectualization is just more of the problem.

TONY'S POST: I see people write about non-duality in most
magnificient terms, that I couldn't emulate, and yet
turn around and describe a pleasureful experience. Who
enjoyed?

ROGER: Good point. But you seem to be pointing outward at the behavior
of others
failing to note the Chinese axiom: while one finger points outward be
aware
that 3 other fingers point back at yourself.

TONY'S POST: This is why it is necessary to purify, body, mind and
intellect. Somebody said that I was obsessed and that I was ignoring
advice being offered.

ROGER: Passion is admirable. But we have to understand when egoic
identification
stains pure silent passion.

TONY'S POST: I'm sorry if I seem
rude but my obsessions are in the words of accepted Jivanmuktis, I see
no reason to modify or question their advice.

ROGER: You fail to note that there is endless diversity in the words of
the wise.
Any problem must be examined from several different positions. You seem
to
place your favored opinion against diversity.

Find reality in your experience (ie knowledge by identity) rather than
smugly fondling the dead thoughts of others!!!

TONY'S POST: My experiences so far bear out what they have said. I don't
write here for approval or non-approval.

ROGER: If in your experience you still compulsively think, then why? Are
the static
passions of accepted authority leading beyond thought? Or are they just
providing a smug secure yet putrid illusion?

~~MELODY RESPONDS TO JODY:

JODYR'S POST (TO TONY):
Your'e speaking from outside your station again.

MELODY:
And again. And again. :-)

"It's the same old story,
Same old song and dance my friend.
It's the same old story,
Same old story same old song and dance.
Fate comes a knockin',
Doors start lockin',
Your old time connection,
Change your direction,
You ain't gonna change it,
Can't rearrange it,
Can't stand the pain when,
It's all the same to you my friend.
It's the same old story,
Same old song and dance my friend.
It's the same old story,
Same old song same old song and dance.

JODY: What, are you bored or somethin'? ;)

MELODY:
Just felt like singing! :-)

"It's the same old story,
Same old song and dance my friend.
It's the same old story,
Same old story same old song and dance.
Fate comes a knockin',
Doors start lockin',
Your old time connection,
Change your direction,
You ain't gonna change it,
Can't rearrange it,
Can't stand the pain when,
It's all the same to you my friend.
It's the same old story,
Same old song and dance my friend.
It's the same old story,
Same old song same old song and dance."

~~HARSHA'S RESPONSE TO TONY ELICITS MEA CULPAS:

TONY'S POST: I do not seek approval or disapproval.

HARSHA: We approve! We approve! Honestly Tony, I think you are totally
authentic. Yes, the mind does merge in the Heart. Love,

ROGER: Harsha, you never fail to invoke warmth in me. And if Tony
stimulates that
impulse in you then, well, what else can be said.

I am touched by love, but my style is "not this!, not this!, not this!"

I can hardly speak without the words somehow having a "not this"
character.
I am saying: Love is NOT condemnation of the senses, NOT condemnation of
desire, NOT celebration of authority, NOT even approval or confirmation
of
an individual etc...

Tony & Harsha, please accept my comments as one perspective. My intent
is to take aim at what appears to me to be illusory. I am sincerely not
intending
to attack any personality. I might accidentally step over the line
occasionally and I remain watchful for this

JODY: I hope Roger doesn't mind my appropriating his apology for myself
as well. I certainly don't mean to attack anyone's person with my
cutting words. I'm trying to wield the sword of discrimination (Roger's
neti, neti) and separate the truth from the assumption.

My displays of impatience are just that.

The one I'm being impatient
with is myself of the past. I held all the same assumptions that I
now attack so vigorously. At the present moment Tony is the one
who is reflecting my previous ignorance, and so therefore his posts
get my immediate attention.

Tony, whether or not you believe me, you are wrong in your assumptions
about realization. They are based on your *interpretation* of your
reading of the jivanmuktis. Unless one is realized, one cannot
comprehend with much clarity what the jivanmuktis are saying, as
one's foundation for viewing their words is murky with ignorance.

When one is blessed with realization, one understands how all
assumptions about realization fall woefully short of the actual
experience. It cannot be interpreted, only experienced. Until
the experience is had, all words, whether read or written, will
fall well short of being adequate

MELODY: Jody, I appreciate this statement very much. Very much, indeed.
You have peaked my curiousity, as well as my appreciation:

If, as you say.... Tony is reflecting your previous ignorance, which is
the reason you respond to his posts as you do -
how do you square that with your earlier statement to Tony,

JODY'S POST: There is no such thing as "intellectual" realization.
There is the movement of experiential identification away from the idea
of 'me', but this is not an intellectual or emotional phenomena.

MELODY: In order for you to be impatient with Tony....seemingly based on
your feelings and thoughts about being 'ignorant' in the past....
wouldn't you still have to be identified with the idea of
'me'.....wouldn't you have
to be hearing Tony thru the 'me' lens of the past?

JODY: Yes, in a way. I hear Tony through the 'me' memory.
Realization does not obliterate the memory of 'me'.
What I'm calling the idea of 'me' is the *essential*
bondage that ties us to knowing ourselves as individuals
*exclusively*. Upon moksha, this essential bond is broken.

The sense of identity is no longer bound in ideas of meness.
Ideas of meness still exist, but the jiva is cut loose
from them.

MELODY'S POST: If the truth be told, don't many of us still do that?

JODY: It's called projection. I would say that almost all of us
do it to some degree at various times. It's a very natural
tendency of the mind.

MELODY'S POST: I wonder if that is what Tony means when he says
maybe only 1 or 2 people in the U.S. are enlightened....

JODY: It could very well be.
Realization comes, enlightenment follows. I can imagine
that one who has been realized for a long time, practicing
intense sadhanas both before and after realization, may
eventually lose all traces of meness. And as Tony suggests,
these folk probably don't have much to say.

MELODY'S POST: maybe he is estimating that only a couple can see so
clearly....so cleanly in the here and now....unencumbered
.....that their 'past' no longer drives their 'nows'?

JODY: Well, there are moments of great clarity in realization,
and the difference between the enlightened and the
realized may be the duration of them.

Great saints are
famous for relating stories from their past to illustrate
their teachings, so memory exists for the enlightened
as well.

My "mission" is to eradicate all that I perceive to have
stood in the way of my realization. These were my
expectations about realization, and my assumptions about
the necessity of asceticism. My hot buttons if you will.

When I see them expressed in others I attempt a correction.
For whatever reason, it makes me feel better to do so. Who
is feeling better? Shakti, in the form of my personality,
is enjoying the enterprise. Who am I to refuse her? ;)

~~HARSHA COVERS THE BASES:
I know you are totally genuine Roger.
Roger & Tony & Jody & Marcia & Mke & Michael, Sarlo and others. I enjoy
the perspective that you share and they all make sense to me. I guess
love is blind :--). By the way, I like the word putrid that you used
Roger in your post. It had a certain whiff of fragrant humor for me!
Having perspectives implies differences. Differences are differences and
nothing more. Sameness is Sameness and nothing more. Jan could beat both
Sarlo and Dan in bowing. Who can compete with a Fruitarian! And Marcia,
you do sound different. Did you get a hair cut?

~~TONY GETS THE LAST WORD(S)I(S)(S)(S):

TONY: The definition of realisation obviously meansdifferent things to
different people. To me it means Self-realisation. NO MIND. To avoid
misunderstanding
in what I write I will use the word Moksha, (or moha kshaya, destroy
illusion.)

The levels are also interesting whether it is kosas, or lokas, or Mind,
super mind, higher mind, illuminated mind, over mind etc. Then we have
the mind
of Saguna Brahman which operates when the mind of a mukti is dead, but
only whilst the mukti looks out,
when the mukti looks in, it is to nirvikalpa samadhi.

Vedantic thought doesn't despise the world or the senses, they have
their place in development.This is a
common misconception in The West particular.

The senses are not denied but 'attachment' to the fruits of them. It is
the original impediment or are
Sankara, Buddha so wrong? What else can turn the attention outward
instead of inward but the senses?

With regard to rebirth, notice my choice of words. I didn't say
reincarnation, which infers a personality.I am talking about rebirth of
the ego and its
samskaras or tendencies.

Every desire has to be risen above and burnt to a seed, check Patanjali.
Ramana I believe was programming his mother's desires and samskaras out
as she was dying, unfortunately she sneezed and left the body, no doubt
for rebirth.

With regard to desiring food, yes it is a legitimate desire and in this
yuga people die quickly without fuel. So the eating of food will not
bind one but
desiring a pepperoni pizza, alcohol, tobacco etcwill.

Having a close to non-dual condition in the mind doesn't necessarily
eliminate desires of the senses.

Unless one is using the word mind to mean sakti, mahat, or Saguna
Brahman etc.

One may achieve certain samadhis but samskaras and attachments will drag
one back.

With regard to the statements of Jivanmuktis, I find they are clear and
understandable---no gobbledook!
Much clearer than on these lists in fact. I keep hearing Churchill's
statement that the best English is that which everyone understands.

Sankara said that death is a separation from our desires. However if one
has achieved moksha there is
no birth or death.

I'm sorry if you still like sense pleasures, you won't or we won't make
it, it is as simple as that. How do
you think we are here???

A whiff of perfume will do it, create a samskara! As Jesus said be ye
perfect as my father in heaven is,
and not one jot or tittle may be left all must be paid, or words to that
effect.


+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

THREAD: "Realization and NonDuality" OR LET'S TALK ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE.

ROGER: NonDuality has absolutely nothing to do with realization
!!!!!!!!

JAN: The perspective that it has, it that realization (defined as
"recognizing who you are and always was") could be called a
"start" for "factual" nonduality.

ROGER'S POST: People on this email list (NDS) fall into 2 groups: the
realized and the
non-realized. One might think that NonDuality is the "way",
but this is
absolutely not the case.

JAN: When fully engaged in a certain task, who is thinking of name,
family and friends? They are temporarily forgotten. Likewise,
one's real nature is temporarily forgotten due to
identifications. That doesn't classify for a different group:)

Regarding ways, there are thousands of proverbial ways, all
leading to Rome. "Rome" reads "factual" nonduality and if it
were dependent on a path, it would be worthless.

ROGER'S POST: For an unrealized person, NonDuality theory points to the
highest truth,
however, thoughts about nonDuality can be misleading, digressive,
distracting, obstructive. Identification with thought/emotion is the
barrior
to realization. Therefore, thoughts about NonDuality are the barrior
dressed
up in different clothes. "Exchange unprofitable speculation
for actual God
Realization" [Yogananda from probably inaccurate memory]

JAN: Some time ago in a usenet news group there was a thread on
"watering down", that is, once a teaching having settled on
North American soil, it will change according to the law "time
is money" so preparation / practice is left out. Jokingly
expressed, it is boiled down to detached enjoyment.

ROGER'S POST: Realization is a particular stage, Osho describes it as
level 4, Maharishi
M. Yogi as level 5, Barry Long as level 4... Steiner,
Gurdjieff, Aurobindo:
all have similiar descriptions.
Stages are always from the perspective of the mind. Regarding
the modifications the mind (and body) will undergo, it has a
certain value and probably was used in ancient cultures as
well, for instance the Sumerian hats with a certain number of
horns on it. The "recognition of Self" would count as 1 :)

Nonduality is a more advanced stage, Osho suggests it
becomes a possibility
at level 5, MMY at level 6-7, BL describes levels 5-7.
(quotes available on
request but I don't have the books handy now)

Unless this is specified in terms of modifications of mind, it
has no practical value. Remember that in Jainism nonduality
becomes "factual" when the first 4 karmas have been burnt,
leaving 4 others.
NonDuality or Advaita Vedanta is the 6th System of Indian
Philosophy. If you're unrealized the appropriate system is the 4th
System
of Indian
Philosophy called Yoga. (not just Hatha yoga but all the
other types & tantra too).

JAN: There has been an era when there was no division in various
kinds of yoga and philosophy; it was when recognition of
"Self" was much more common and easier than it is today.
If ya put the cart before the horse yer not going anywhere!
Before there were metaled roads, a trained long distance
runner could outperform a horse in a 24 hours race - who needs
horse and cart?

ROGER'S POST: MMY says something like: the actual experiential reality
of
NonDuality is
entirely & totally & completely incomprehensible by the
ordinary mind. So,
if one is unrealized, it's just a pointing. The work to be done is to be
still. "Stillness is the Way" [BL]. Drop
intellectualization, drop thoughts,
¤all thoughts, especially those about NonDuality !

JAN: MMY is right; "factual" nonduality could be said to end
experience once and for all. The most effective pointing is
DEATH and DYING. It is unavoidable and when fully realizing this, how
can one enjoy "business as usual?" Pleasure and pain are but the two
sides of the same coin, one isn't possible
without the other and both have to be given up once. "In order
to find Life, one has to lose life first", the Kathopanishad,
"dying while remaining alive", it all points to same: the
"sour apple" comes before the nectar. The "nectar of
immortality" will flow spontaneously whereas the "sour apple"
has to be processed in (inner) solitude.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Twinkle, twinkle, little star
How I wonder what you are.
Up above the sky so high,
Like a diamond in the sky.
Twinkle, twinkle little star,
How I wonder what you are.

love,
oh

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