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From: Eric Laing

Skye, thank you.

snip
Your grace with "one woolly
caterpillar carpenter",
astounds... but I feel also, as I
understand your words,
that we must move further. What greedy
little
pigs we are! More Light, More Love,
More Food Distribution!
Peace! Now! Anyway, let's get to it...

Skye:>I agree with you, all
perceptions are valid, even terrorists
>on tarmacs, but what i am exploring
here in the NDS is
>whether enlightenment opens the possibility for mankind as a
>whole to express itself less traumatically.

E: And that is what brought, and keeps, me here. To me the Wisdoms-
are all dead things. Yes, I know how different the view is, and how
useless that thousand petaled lotus life, remained.

I am a constant half step away from joining sidhartha and the
other 2 billionpanhandlers out there for going on 17 years. Harsha, is
this some typical symptom of spontaneous realization outside of formal
assistance? I did it my way, and still think it makes no diff.

I have always felt willingly, as the one to wait for all. NDS has shown
me that all already is. I now have tried on (sat with) nobody
nobody doin' no-thing. Fine thing this pizza pie.
But my heart wants none. My trauma is gone, but Others?

Skye, this planet is raped. Sadhana, as well as myself.
Cancer for you. Lately, I'm having a time finding anyone,
on somesort of level, that hasn't been.

Phil pointed out this seems to be the mechanism of breakthrough.
We all want to move on, but how? "The wisdom" that there is
nowhere to go rots on my soul like today's Urth herself.

And there is work... whispers my Love the Moon.

S: >To awaken to the
>reality that we are seamlessly related to *all that is* and
>*not only* within the context of the selfish desires of our
>adolescent personalities. Otherwise we will remain on the
>tarmac, imprisoned by our conditioning, for another 10
>million years!

E: Probably used to seem like they had that much time.

S:>My questions are only ever about coming to an
>understand of whether enlightenment will enables us to
>express ourselves in a less violating manner, one that does
>not continue to damage the planet and bring about humanities
>extinction. So far i don't think it can.

E: I have spoken with more conscious, no simply Awakened, people
in the last 5 months here, than I understood was possible
on Earth at any given moment. uh-oh....


>There is still a missing link and i think it has something
>to do with the second death that Jan has been expressing so
>well lately.

E: I say: May the world spontaneously have this second (not two!) death.

S: >I am here to awaken to "That" which envelopes, embraces and
>sooths our petty grievances in this our troubled realm of
>valid personality "traits" with its endless growing pains,
>(dreamer that i am :-). And to understand that we live and
>move and have our being in an inviolate safe universe, that
>has no need to consider - in the reality of the Self - the
>protection of *others* or make believe (gritless) candy
>pacifiers designed to suit only *my* personal tastes.

E: Binkies? John loves his pacifier, but I notice while teething,
he throws in down in utter frustration and pain and fury.

99.444% (?) sleep ended for this world. There is nothing
to fix, nothing to do. The World is Now Enlightened.
You can think you are waiting for that safety/ comfort/
to show up to the EGO's old way of perceiving,
or claim the birthright. We know this. And i feel
We all know this NOW.

Of course this is not written, It is ours in Being.

It is, my dearest sweet. That simple. I give that you
see this all. In joining It, It is.

Freehearts~
Eric
____________________________________________


Hi Eric. You are so fluid and flexible in dialogue and enjoyed your response
to Skye. Skye is something else. I can see how she would touch you. I don't
know if there are any typical symptoms of realization outside of or within
formal traditions. There might be some in certain formal traditions but they
differ from each other at least in expression. Fellowship with like minded
people helps to gradually stabilize and grow in the feeling/experience of I
AM and that which is behind it. Equanimity, balance, kindness to other
sentient beings, peace of mind with awareness, are typically emphasized as
worthwhile goals on most spiritual path as they reflect the nature of the
Self through the mind.

My best wishes to you and your family Eric. Peace brother and a big hug.
Love
Harsha
______________________________________

>Annie: ...and that you do this through your work. Why aren't you a nobody
> nobody? Are you well known where you come from?
>
>Dan: Well, known... if not well known...
> And in a profession greatly rewarding
> recognition of me --
> But a nobody nobody I truly am,
> standing nowhere, recognized by none.
> Seeing them thinking they recognize me,
> unrecognized I glowingly smile...


I don't really understand some of the above but that doesn't matter, and it
sounds very poetic :-)

I guess most people on the NDS site are spending a lot of time with people
who have no idea of how we see life/god/everything? These people are still
the same as us, just don't see life the same way. I found that very peculiar
at first but am fairly use to it now.

I still learn from those around me as many have a lot of wisdom, even if not
"awake" as some would say.

Stay cool
Lots of love
Annie
______________________________

>Dan: Hitler, his followers, you, me, are all aspects of an
> interdependent arising of events - separating one event from
> another is an imaginary
> act, and this imaginary act itself is merely another aspect of
> the mutually interdependent arising... There is no separate
> being who can witness anything ... thinking this can be done
> is called by some "ego-centric" thinking, although such thinking
> itself is merely yet another aspect of the interdependent
> arising of phenomena.

Annie:
This fits with something that 'hits' me at times throughout my every day...
that every leaf, every atom, every grain of sand, every person, every cell
is exactly where it should be whether we accept that or not, and it is all
one and no separation is possible so acceptance is the easiest path for me.

To look at sand on a beach and know that every grain is one with me, it's
different form exactly as it should be, where it should be... and this
applies to everything in the universe and everything else too...

It is stunning to even try to conceive the immensity of what we are all part
of... so fascinating... and so wonderful to know I am part of something so
utterly, magnificently inconceivable.

Wonderfully grateful
Love and fascination,
Annie
______________________________________________________

>To Dan, From Evelyn, Thank you for answering my question. I agree, there is
>no independent witness, however it may well be that between ego and Self
>there is witnessing awareness which is a reflection of that Self in the
>mind. It seems that when a stand is taken in that witnessing awareness the
>ego with all its activity begins to lose its hold and is seen for what it
really is, memory and feelings associated with memory presenting itself as a
real,live in the moment entity. Thanks again, Evelyn

D: You're certainly more than welcome, Evelyn. I see your point.
As long as the impression of an entity lingers, there's a tendency
to get caught up in it. What you're descirbing as witnessing is
breaking that tendency - not getting caught up in it. I agree very
much that without such a break, the tendency of memory-emotion-thought
to generate impressions of an existing independent entity will
continue. My experience is that it takes intense awareness to
attend to this. Although such awareness is "natural and effortless",
such awareness can be "easily" fragmented, avoided and ignored
(fragmented in terms of perception, not reality).

The shift from one to the other
involves commitment and attentiveness. Complacency and desire to
maintain the status quo (of one's world-view, or one's
self-image based self-esteem, for example)
"easily" blocks the movement of awareness. Clearly,
it's quite "easy" to get caught in the moment to moment tendencies
by which "ego" (the imagined entity) declares its beliefs, stance,
goals, fears, agenda, etc. I see the break with this powerful
tendency as the "witnessing" you seem to be describing.
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
-- Love -- Dan
_______________________

From: (Jerry M. Katz)

The Guru Doesn't Have A Clue: My Meeting with Master Nome
(pronounced 'no me')

http://www.nonduality.com
____________________________________

From: Lovecode

To be free is to have a connection with NO THING, just a connection with
EVERYTHING. It is so nice to have it like that Looking at it from this ego's
point of view or non Point of view. Speaking of awakening, Seeing EVERYTHING
as ONE gives no preference to ANYTHING yet EVERYTHING. So what do "i" really
care about? NOTHING! There is no i involved with anything. Just doing.
Whatever tendencies you had as a person continue. Whether that be helping
people or how ever you have evolved to that point in life as an individual.
So...What is freedom? Let me ask, What is bondage? I want neither of them.
So Freedom is where i am not. Funny, i seem to want nothing and yet that
NOTHING contains EVERYTHING!
DanL
_________________________________

As any farmer or lover can tell you, "yes" often needs some help, but
"no" is always readily available. "No" is everywhere. It is so
everywhere it is almost "yes"; but not quite. "Yes" is a rare treasure.
Without it "no" means nothing. No need to send your sweetheart a box of
chocolate "no". She already has one for you. In the end "yes" and "no",
"no" and "no", and "yes" and "yes" are all unacceptable. But this needs
to be approached with some delicacy.....or by accident.

Larry
_____________________________

From Bruce:
Ramesh Baleskar's former
student, Wayne Liquorman
aka "Ram Tzu," is very
active in the U.S. and
elsewhere -- a really
good guy as far as I can
tell. His site is at
the followiing URL:
http://www.advaita.org

_________________

From: David Hodges

I've seen and heard the phrase "My higher Self".

This is like a tail saying "My dog". Or a sticker on the inside of a
windshield saying "My car".

Or better yet, it is like the image on a movie screen down at the local
Hoyt's Cinema 12 saying "My projector, my film, my theater, my distribution
system, my director, my actors, my studio".

Self is Self and doesn't belong to any particular individual. It's not like
I have a higher Self which is different from your higher Self. It's not
like I have a higher Self which can call your higher Self on the phone and
they can compare notes.

And yet...and yet...

There is this nagging thought that somehow and in some way, and despite
Realization which opened the eyes to the above, there is, in fact, some
kind of tether which, during the present space-time moment, connects
Awareness to a particular organism which is labelled with my name, David
Hodges. And so far there has been no escape from this tether. No matter how
expanded awareness gets and no matter how impersonal, no matter how much
all is Self and not small self, there is always this return to this
particular body/mind/feeling complex.

Why is that? One day I thought that maybe our bodies are a kind of cosmic
filing system, with "David Hodges" being merely a marker in a collosal
directory structure designed to facilitate the sharing out of the general
Self-stuff of NonDual Awareness into packets that could then be put into
play for the general amusement of the One. [Actually this thought was
prompted by something Gene said. Got to be honest with the attributions!]
Thus, knowing full well that this marker called "David Hodges" is really an
entry in a directory called "Temp" and is destined to be swept in the
Recycling Bin sooner rather than later. But it still seems odd that there
is such a firm tie between Awareness and some particular bodily incarnation.
________________________________________________________

From Andrew:
Partly this has to do with the language we happen to speak.
I read an essay a while back called _Thinking in Gaelic_ , and it said that in
Gaelic
you can't say "I have a pen" (or horse or family or higher self or whatever)
you
say
"there is a pen at me" (or "there is a higher self at me"), 'me' being where
the
thing
in question is located at present, because everything is autonomous and nothing
can
possess anything else. You can say "my pen", but then it does not imply
possession but
rather it means that the pen in question is dear to me or that I love, so in
gaelic
"my higher self" would mean the higher self that I love.
I would like to know whether Sanscrit and Pali and Chinese and other languages
are
similar.
_______________________________

From: xan

You are not ready to accept the fact that you have to give up. A complete and
total 'surrender'.... It is a state of hopelessness which says that there is
no way out.... Any movement in any direction, on any dimension, at any level,
is taking you away from yourself....

U.G. Krishnamurti
_____________________

Dave:
We're not free until we are one. We are not one here, but we can see what it
feels like. No?

xan: ~ No. We are one here. The multiplicity is only appearance.
We can do more than see what it feels like. By seeing and
seeing through appearances we discover the freedom that
was covered by that veil, we discover the silent awareness
we are - no seeing, no feeling, no waiting. Just Being.

By knowing what you are you know the One that all are.
__________________________________________________

Roger ... Contemplate deeply 'who am I?' while maintaining silence. Yet
here I am again living in the noise of dualistic words and thoughts as if I
would perish by not expressing them. Strange -- Why is it so hard to follow
these simple and straightforward instructions? >


~ Good question, Roger.
I've been wondering that about you (and Dave) myself.

Actually, not "why" but What are you getting out of the
noise that seems more attractive than this exquisite
silent wholeness?

love
xan
_______________________________


From: Bruce Morgen <editor@juno.com>



Bruce and Sadhana Louise continue a discussion of issues about the relevance of
nondual enlightenment to psychological suffering.
>
> >B: Perhaps someone will start
> >a "Psychobabble Salon" for
> >such lectures.
>
>
>SL: Contempt noted.
>
B: Not so much contempt as a
noting of cookie-cutter
jargon dispensed with
condescension.
>
> >B: Once this
> >so-called "wound" is only
> >a memory, you are the only
> >one who can "pick" at it.
> >Nobody else can touch it,
> >let alone re-open it.
> >
> >The very most/worst anyone
> >else can do is to remind
> >you that it's still there,
> >buried in denial and
> >escapism as abetted and
> >enabled by well-meaning
> >fellow sufferers, often
> >equipped with comforting
> >credentials. Realization
> >isn't about catering to
> >one's ancient psychological
> >injuries, it's about seeing
> >the very nature of suffering
> >itself and the miraculous
> >sword-stroke sundering of
> >our habitual attachment to
> >it. The past is dead, it
> >lives on as conditioning
> >only by virtue of our
> >ongoing consent to that
> >relationship.
>
>
SL: Tell me Bruce. If such
> "catering" to psychological
> trauma is such a worthless
> focus, how does a man of compassion
> respond to the "not to be catered
> to" suffering that ravishes
> our future parents today, and
> fills our juvenille centers and
> prisons in unparalled numbers?

B: Situationally, of course.
You have thrown out every
bit as reeking a red
herring as Melody's
"holocaust" -- nobody here
is an abused adolescent, we
are all more or less
functional adults engaged
in some degree of spiritual
enquiry. There is a vast
difference between ongoing
or very recent family and/or
community dysfunction and
such dysfunction as an
ancient, festering memory.

As for the imprisoned
multitudes (largely a U.S.
phenomenon), look no
further than the ill-
conceived and ongoing
failure called "The War On
Drugs" -- I don't have the
statistics at hand, but if
memory serves me well more
than half the U.S. prison
population comprises those
convicted of nothing more
or other than simple drug
posession.
>
SL: How do you bring back from the
> 'living dead' those who have
> been ravished by life's torments?

B: I can do no such thing,
but I will refrain from
reinforcing attachment to
the eternal sufferer
self-image.
>
SL: You detest what I offered earlier
> today about healing? Then tell me,
> please, what would
> you do if you had a sister
> brutally gang raped by 5 drunken
> men, and found sitting cradled in
> the fetal position, rocking herself
> like a baby?
>
> I met such a lady just this morning.

B: Is she still "curled in
fetal position," or is
she living the atrocity
time after time due to
attachment to memories of
the atrocity? Again, I am
distinguishing between a
newly-inflicted wound and
an ancient memory given
zombie-like life by
enshrining it as part of
ones self-image. There is
a time for affirmation,
consolation, and for the
application of
psychological Band-Aids[tm],
and a time for seeing the
past for the dead data it
actually is.
>
SL: You think atrocities happened
> only during the Holocaust?

B: Of course not, but the term
"Holocaust" is a handy way
to promote ones own trauma
as equivalent to the fate
of tortured, slaughtered
millions and to depict ones
perceived tormentor(s) as
appallingly Nazi-like.

SL: They
> happen every day, every six minutes!

B: Has one happened to you in
the past six minutes? Do
you understand the
difference between
compassion in the face of
ongoing suffering and
ongoing identification
with suffering?
>
SL: How do you help these walking dead
> touch the nondual perspective?

B: Before one is ready to
enquire into "the nondual
perspective" one must be
able to see and understand
the mental edifice of
self-image. Given such a
visceral, in-the-moment
understanding of ones own
game, "the nondual
perspective" will arrive
in its own sweet time.

SL: Do
> you really imagine it is as simple
> as using one swordcutting-swoop?

B: I certainly don't "imagine"
that I wield the sword, but
it is indeed that simple --
by no means easy, but it's
incomparably simple.
>
SL:> What appears to take only an instant,
> is often simply the result of a process
> that unfolds over time. A leaf drops
> from the tree, yes. But there was a
> lot of movement around that attachment,
> underneath that attachment, that led
> up to the simple, easy 'letting go'.
>
B: The causal link between the
"process" and "letting go"
is illusory -- if it wasn't,
spiritual endeavor would be
as deterministic and
predictable as learning
arithmetic. The much-
touted "spiritual path" is
merely the course of ones
life prior to the utter
collapse of self-image and
the concurrent direct
realization of "God."

__________________________________________________________

From: Kristie Shelloner

Dear Melody:

I've been away for a few days and seems like I've walked back in on the same
old same old. You are very brave. And you are right.

I wonder often if some of the list people don't understand the difference
between ordinary suffering and what I call going beneath the glass floor.
Having your child killed in a car accident or losing your husband or parents
to some horrible disease....these are ordinary losses. They happen. They are
painful, grievous, and may cause many to question the nature of God and/or
justice or purpose. But they are ordinary events that come to all of us
sooner or later. Same with losing a job or a fortune or suffering from a
spouse's infidelity.

There is another category of suffering entirely. One which tears apart
everything we ever knew or thought we knew. Makes a mockery of goodness and
innocence and introduces the taste of evil into our souls. Not just the
taste of grief or loss or unfairness.

I think child sexual abuse falls in this category. I think rescuing a woman
who has been raped and then being accused of the rape and sent to prison for
20 years falls into this category. I think HOlocaust victims fall into this
category. I think anything that turns good into bad and twists reality into
irreality is of a different order than ordinary loss. I have experienced
both and there is a profound difference, although I do not think I am ready
to express that phenomenon very effectively, yet.

I think life events that cause us to question, not God, but our own innate
goodness and innocence....WHERE THAT IS NOT WARRANTED, do such damage to our
capacity to trust that it damages our capacity to heal. One cannot heal
unless one can trust.

The "psychology of the wounded" as Bruce calls it, is defined by this one
central wound. Every soul who walks the streets or grieves alone at night,
or is stricken by irresolveable confusion and internal conflict suffers from
a loss of memory of what trust is. This is what it means to be beneath the
glass floor. To live somehow within sight of the way things are supposed to
be, to see the movement and the motion, of the metaphoric places we once
walked, to be invisibly shielded and kept away from "normalcy" and to be
able to see it all but not participate, not remember how...this is the
character of the wound of the soul.

We pay so much attention to glass ceilings...those invisible barriers to
promotion, but we are so innured to the presence of a glass floor....upon
which so many wise people walk with wisdom and surety, oblivious to the
presence of those they walk across. Unconditional acceptance, a loving
glance, kind and quiet presence, these alone open a window in the floor
through which a wounded presence might ascend, and then walking again, might
find it useful to know about such "higher" practices and insight as not
needing someone to open a window.

Is this so hard to understand? Is it really so difficult for the
transcended, enlightened spirits of the universe to understand that their
way is not the way for many who are climbing, and that the whole point of
their wisdom and grace is to know enough to find the language that
communicates to the person in need of insight....not to badger them with
concepts that worked for the enlightened one, but may not be of a time and
place for the one in need... to fit the teaching to the lesson that is asked
for?

The lesson that is ALWAYS asked for...by one in need, by one in torment, by
one in grief or confusion, is TO BE LOVED. To be understood. To be Seen.

It is for those who know of their wholeness and who know that they need NOT
be seen by others to know of their wholeness....to share that with others
who do need to be seen by SEEING THEM. This is all you must do. Disclaiming
knowledge is not teaching. Castigation is not teaching. Pointing out flaws
is not teaching. Judgement is not teaching. Derision is not teaching. Seeing
is teaching. Seeing renews the capacity to trust. Seeing is healing.

To See beyond someone's suffering, not by refuting it or denying it,or
arguing with it, but by seeing that which is whole, where a suffering
brother sees only that which is broken....is to heal. To see what is broken
and reflect that and give power to that only makes receipt of the teaching
of wholeness more difficult.

If you love me you will understand me. If you understand me you will love
me.If you love me and understand me you will heal me and then I will have no
more need of your love and understanding, but will in turn have love and
understanding to share. If one has not learned this lesson then one has no
authority to claim enlightenment or enlightenment has no meaning and no
purpose except to aggrandize the ego.

Dearest Melody....you are a gift to this list....your persistent claim to
your right to experience your process your way, and the righteousness of
wanting to share that and be real about where you are at when you are
there,..is an important lesson here for many wise people who have yet not
learned the most essential function of their wisdom. I wish for you peace of
mind and discovery. I know you have that always, sometimes in the foreground
and sometimes in the background. I would love to make you a cup of tea,
brush and braid your hair, wash your feet in warm soapy water, and leave you
to lie on sweet lavendar to the sounds of cicadas singing, breezes blowing
and the music of the eons.

Much love and respect, Kristi

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