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3 the dual state
appears to be natural. The memory of the nondual lingers to one or
another measure. It calls.

Following pursuit of that call, the nondual state again becomes known as
the natural.

If life is about anything, that's what it seems to be about. That chase.
My brother Rick called it the runaway horse. Even being still and doing
nothing is part of that chase.

Riding that horse to the source of its call is the activity of
enlightenment. Because that ride is not met with the friction of
experience or mind it appears as though nothing is happening and all is
still. But there is a most subtle movement, while at the same time being
huge.

Jerry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> From: John La Grou

> Truth. What is
> truth.. What IS truth?


Jan:
A word.

A quilt of one's own weaving?

There is no such thing as "own".



> A universal absolute?


An absolutely nothing.


An artificial construct to be
> transcended, or reality to be unified with?


Nothing to construct, nothing to transcend and nothing to unify with.


> A divorce,
> or wedding feast?


No feeling or event whatsoever.



> Is truth the absence or fulfillment
> of such concepts?



No absence without (former) presence and no fulfillment without desire.


> Is it freedom from the strife of
> self-work towards liberation, or found in the cultivation?


Some "realizers" acquired freedom from suffering, grief, hunger, thirst,
pain etc. but this has nothing to do with "truth". There is neither bondage
nor liberation and what is cultivated will become barren again.


>
> Is truth encased in all above, or free to soar in
> boundless abandon?



What can be encased can be disclosed and what is free can be caught again.


> Is truth reflected in every path,
> or do some paths meander into to truth-barren peril
> -- echoing Tim's sentiment above?


What can be reflected can be seen and what can be seen can be felt.
No feeling or event whatsoever.



> Is truth jb's vacuum
> in a bottle?


The vacuum in the bottle is the vacuum out of the bottle. No more, no less.


> Or his ale?


That will depend on consumption.


> Is truth ==Gene Poole's== UFOs?


In the plural, that's unlikely even if Gene can create parallel universes.
Better ask him.


> Or his blessed vulnerability? Is it Petros's angst? Or
> Tim Harris's gentle love?


No feeling or event whatsoever.


> Is truth in the seeking, the seeker, or the sought?


What if truth only IS; can it be sought, found, lost or thought?


> Can truth be said, or does this become one of endless
> pointings and noddings born from "feelings," Skye extols,
> of "certainty."


No feeling or event whatsoever. Certainty is born from uncertainty and what
is born will certainly die.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jerry:

To integrate means to make whole or to unify. I find that such
integration, in my life, requires constant work and it is the work of
awareness of what I am doing. It doesn't mean I'm always honest, civil,
pure and decent. No. And I'm not. It does mean I am aware of what I am
doing and of my feelings, even though my doings and my feelings may be
erratic, nervous, or lazy.

When I talk about the work of awareness, I don't mean that awareness is
a ticket to do whatever anyone wants. The proper awareness corrects that
which leads to a breakdown of integrity, even if it may not correct that
breakdown once and for all.

What is the proper awareness? That is a good question, and I leave it
with the reader.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>If someone asked you what it is to know the nondual perspective, what
would you say?


(Gene Poole):

I would say this:

"I am not qualified...

"I experience now, not as before, this entirity, this entire universe, as
my living self.

"I am myself in myself; I am myself having myself.

"This whole universe, is myself,and it comes to me to engulf me; I am
engulfed, I am engulfing myself in grace. Thus engulfed, I abide.

"There is no detail which I am not, I am it, dream or otherwise, as can be
construed, any and all of it, right now, without condition and without
reservation, or with conditions and reservations, as it is, and as it may
be.

"I do not qualify myself; there is literally nothing to qualify myself
against, but myself.

"Some of my voices insist that I am not it, that I do not know myself as
myself, that if I were to know myself that then I would not know myself as
myself, that there would be no knower to know. But I am that knower, and I
do know, and I do know myself, and I am all of it, and those are my voices
telling me that I do not know, and this is my voice saying that I do know.
Only the knower knows, and I am that knower; I know of knowing and of not
knowing.

"Knowing abiding, I abide not knowing, and in abiding, I know.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Rebecca offers:

"Truth disappears with the telling of it. It can only be conveyed, not
stated."

Got this from Coming to Our Senses by Morris Berman. I've been chewing on it
for awhile.


Rebecca
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
zero:

from a nondualist perspective, the act of helping does not attach any
personal judgement at all. spend three nights a week at a soup kitchen, and
the nondualist does not say "what a good boy am i." it's not good and not
bad. it is an ultra-spontaneous reaching out, as would be done for a
friend who is stumbling or falling.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Gurdjieff has a parable which is called the parable of the
carriage, horse, driver. This may and I sure it does come
from some other tradition. Gurdjieff was an eclectic.

The carriage is the body, the horse is the emotions and the
driver is the mind. This is the lower emotions and the lower
intellectual center. The master (or real I) rides in the carriage.
Most of the time the driver is in the tavern getting drunk on
consensus reality and there is a false master in the carriage.
The horse is running wild and the carriage hasn't been oiled
or maintained in years. The most important part of the
parable for me recently is what part does the shaft (moving
center) play which
connects the carriage (instinctual center) with the horse and
what part do the reins play which connect the horse with
the driver? There is no direct physical connection between
the mind and the Master but the driver can hear the passenger
if he has ears to hear.

Marcia

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

> >Where are the responsibility and compassion in
> >nondualism?

It is the highest possible compassion to annihilate both the object and the
subject of compassion.

Petros

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In terms of
mailing lists and newsgroups, regardless of the intention of the writer, the
email or message shows up in ones mailbox completely neutral. You do not
even have the handwriting to point towards the good 'intention' of the
writer. Therefore, any meaning, understanding, nuance, essence, message,
flame etc.. that you gleen from it or read into it is 'purely' your own.
This is the refining process of truth that, as far as I can see, is
'perpetual' in nature. It is the 'becoming' nature of 'being'.

Soon, you find that enemies now seem comfortably familiar and friends are
all but silent. In reality, through our arguments and influence, all that we
have acheived is speaking the same language (although, once in a while our
accent shows... lol.) and none of us have changed our view, only our
'selfs'. Ultimately, the agreement we reach is based in the fact that,
'indeed', from the start we were all saying the same thing. Maturity, or
perhaps 'riping' of the fruit is a better word here, leads us to a 'peaceful
mindfulness'.

Gentle Peace.

Tim Harris

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Melody:

From my perspective, we understand and accept
each other just fine. It's our 'reactions' to
the other that is hard sometimes to face....so
we don't, and instead settle into the thoughts that
we don't understand or accept the 'other'.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It seems to me, and I don't mind a bit being
wrong here, that the key to a nondual perspective
is the lack of 'entanglement'. And however any
of us choose to free ourselves of those entanglements
is a-ok. After all is said and done, what does
it matter?

Melody

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Elly wrote:

So, "what is truth." Truth is holding the cup so your sick father can
drink. Truth is the smell of peonies. Truth is lips in the dark. AND truth
is liquid pure thought and crystaline realizations which, once living, get
pinned like butterflies on a board by being approximated in language. Such
treatment is necessary (I think) to aid people in recognizing those
butterflies, but once that's accomplished, we should cut the usage of
formalin and mounting pins to a minimum.

This work is work. Not thought alone but action and attention and choice.
Endlessly demanding. The effects are spiritual, but the practice (at least
my practice) consists of a framework of physical actions. Sit at certain
times. Write a journal. Shower often, pay attention to getting enough
exercise. Rest often. Attend to others. Give thanks, aloud if possible.
Avoid other influences, liquor and negative people and the TV news and
politics.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Glo offered
from her "oldies but goodies" file:

originally posted on 9/29/98 by Harsha
Offered again due to the topic


Harsha:
The non-dual state (call it Self or No Self or something beyond either of
those, etc.) contains within it Absolute Certainty, not as a part of it, but
simply as That Which Is. When Gurus speak of different states or stages of
Realization (Sixth, Seventh, Eighth and beyond), it seems to me that they are
caught in the trap of the mind which is easily fascinated by the trivial
and the
superficial. The Total and Radical Abiding in the Absolute Being does not
allow
for such differences. If there is still something left to go Beyond or
Transcend
then Realization/Recognition of the Absolute is not Clear and Steady. The Self
Realized person sees his/her own mind as a particular type of condition
arising
out of the Absolute and is at ease with that condition.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
zero:

as i'm following a thread, i'm
interpreting it from my own experiences. i try to express myself, i try to
hear others. but do we really communicate? the nature of the thread makes
it even more difficult. it's as if you walked in in the middle of "my
movie." i shall bear in mind that i'm not the only one in the theatre here
in "real time." i know that the most amazing communication is when i can
look into someone's eyes and see the cosmos. we don't have to speak. even
that is limited by my senses. words are limits. words can try to name my
experience. i dunno, i spent the afternoon sitting on a country road with
two ostriches. perhaps the kind of days i have contribute to my sometimes
absurdity.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bruce:

There is nothing "we" can
"annihilate" -- what does
disappear is a pattern of
thoughts, mere neural
energy, a "notion" that
assumes the seperateness
of "subject" and "object,"
observer and observed.
The whole encompasses the
fragments sans the
labels -- or even with the
labels, which are also
seen as the whole. It is
the most complete sentence
of all, whether parsed or
otherwise.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"Jerry M. Katz" wrote:

> There's always room to become a better person. I don't know how nondual
> that is. It's just practical. It helps one get along with all kinds of
> people and become more effective, if being effective is what a person is
> called to do.
>

Good point Jerry. I see being a 'better person' as being an expression of
the nondual nature. I have embraced the idea that the I AM is the 'singular'
state of being and becoming. It is the argument. By 'being' better and
focusing on 'becoming' better I set my path to a postive outcome. How long
will the fruits of this path take to ripen? Doesn't matter as long as the
course has been set. The rest of the journey is on 'auto pilot' and it will
be what it will be.... by being 'what is'. Perhaps I did not select a path
of 'perfection', I am very flawed you know, but I believe that I have
selected the 'right' path by choosing to learn goodness, kindness,
cultivating the virtues of the Eightfold Path (buddihism), etc... in hopes
of finding the Fruits of the Spirit as listed in the Bible (Gal 5:22)... to
the ultimate realization of 'gentle peace'.

Regards.

Tim Harris

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