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skye: Love has great value. It is the divine content of all
that is. To me value fulfillment creates the internal and
external furniture of the universe.

~~~
skye

See how our points of view differ?

To me "great value" indicates relativity.
Instead I would say Love is invaluable - beyond comparison,
as the divine content of all that is.

For me the silent universe has no furniture,
no internal or external,
no fulfillment or lack of fulfillment.
It is complete as it is eternally.

I am losing interest in the universe of form.
You are interested in it.
Shall we argue about who is *right* ?


xan
________________________________________________________________________

Dan: Nondelusion means seeing That which is not lacking in anyone,
which is never lacking anywhere.


Xan: Consider this: What we see is determined by where we are seeing
from. One of my teachers sat with me as I wept out my anguish. She said
"Just beautiful." It took me years to understand beauty is all she
ever sees.
________________________________________________________________________

Here's something to sleep on, or wake up to. It's from "Fingers
Pointing Toward Moon" by Wei Wu Wei. He's quoting Ramana.
He also said, "That which you take to be your normal state is, on the
contrary, an abnormal state....Do you have to search for a long time
before finding this "I" that is none other than yourself? This is what
I mean when I declare that no spiritual discipline (sadhana) is
necessary in order to realise the Self. All one asks of you is that you
abstain from doing anything whatever (of a disciplinary nature), that
you remain calm, and finally that you be that which you really are. You
have only to free yourself from the hypnotic spell in which your
abnormal state holds you."

Larry
--------

Larry - This is sage advice. Thanks. The hypnotic spell occurs
whenever something "outside" is added into the picture. If I live with
no "outside", that is waking from the hypnotic spell. The "outside"
arises with thought, language, fixation of awareness on appearances, and
social assumptions about persons. The ideas of methods and disciplines
are associated with thought, language, social assumptions, and so on, so
how could they yield freedom? There is only One capable of the freedom
you discuss. Much is said about this One, but all those words take
appearance, they are brought from "outside" in. How much value, then do
these words have in comparison with the One who is never not there,
never "outside"?

-- love -- Dan
________________________________________________________________________

>Question:
>
>I have an internal dilemma of understanding that I could use some shared
>insight to resolve. Seems the answer is obvious either way so I assume I
>have framed the "problem" wrong...but it haunts me and is at the root of
>great fear....

Kristie,

No, you have done a good job of framing the problem in the way it is
taught. Your question represents the pulling together of two different
strands of teaching on desire.

>1. The issues of desire: some say the root of all suffering
> some say an expression of the search for joy

Suffering isn't just a hard life, sickness, death of a loved one, a car
accident, a terminal disease. It is the anguished desire that things be
different from how they now are. The depth of suffering is akin to the
distance between how things are, and how we would like them to be.
That's why they say "pain *and* suffering," because you can have one
without the other.

There *are* teachings that say to reduce desire. These I call
progressive path teachings. They can involve ascetic lifestyles even
out of monastic settings. Lifestyles such as avoiding sex, spicy foods,
too much sun, too much/little sleep, avoiding music with beautiful
melodies or exciting rhythms, etc. The idea is to polish the mirror
until all the specks are gone. Some teachings say this will end up in
realization. Other paths, such as advaita, and Middle Way Buddhism, use
it as a precursor to direct inquiry.

In the advaita tradition, the mirror polishing isn't meant to result in
realizing the Self. (Indeed, the orthodox advaita explanation of this
is, that if the obstructions to clear seeing have accumulated over an
infinitude of lifetimes, then how in the world can we polish the mirror
perfectly clean in *one* lifetime?) Rather, the polishing is a
preliminary technique to direct inquiry, to make the mind and heart
quiet enough so that meditation and deep enquiry can begin. The
meditation and enquiry are difficult enough, but with a desire-filled
mind, even harder. So the progressive path is used for some quiet
space. It *may* even be continued beyond that, but for a different
motive (not goal-oriented at that point, but for celebration, etc.).

This enquiry takes many forms that we're all familiar with, and it is
sometimes called "the direct path." Examples: Ramana's "Who am I,
Advaita's jnana yoga, Nisargadatta's dialogues, and his "Understanding
is All"; and the various reasonings on selflessness of persons and
objects in Madhyamika Buddhism, Krishna Menon's teachings on the
objectlessness of the world, body and mind.

So what about desires? Here's a scenario that I've personally seen
happen to people who have found themselves on the direct path.

The enquiry comes to an end when desires (and other thoughts and
feelings) are seen as nothing but arisings in consciousness, happening
to no one. The supposed owner of the desires is seen as nothing other
than a thought, or another object arising in consciousness.
Consciousness is seen as our nature, not the body/mind complex. So if a
desire seems to arise after that, "it is not taken delivery of," (to
quote Nisargadatta), not taken seriously, not seen as belonging to
anyone. It might have to be inferential at first, like "Oh yeah, that
*can't be a desire, because it's arising and falling in consciousness,
just like its supposed owner." But this process gathers momentum over
time, and kicks in sooner and sooner with each arising - and life
becomes sweeter and sweeter, no matter what circumstances go on. Even
if the bills increase, sickness dawns, loved ones leave, etc.

In that respect, it is the end of desire, not by being cleaned or
polished, but by being seen.

And Kristie, *that's* where the gusto, verve, joy, lightness and
spontaneity come in. Life is then lived as a celebration of all that
is, of our very Self.

>2. To live life with gusto and passion or to let go the attachment to a
> desire for gusto and passion so that one may experience gusto and
> passion in any situation.

Yes, the desire for joy and gusto are just like any other desires. To
continue in that scenario, the true fulfillment of these desires comes
when desires "end" by being seen as arisings in the Self, occurring to
no entity.

Love,

--Greg

-------------


...I would ask here, Kristy, "What is really the root of
'great fear'? Is it desire, or is it the "I-thought" to which Jan
alluded? To me, the separative structure of thought, based on an
assumed-to-exist "outsider" which is the thinker, can't help but
generate fear and desire. The problem isn't desire per se, but desire
associated with perpetuating the "I" of the "I-thought". This outsider
that wants security, things, and experiences can only have its
pseudo-existence while thought is continuing its self-reinforcing
"game". End the game, end the fear, end the desires associated with
the "separate self". Ending the game isn't easy, because we tend to
invent games within games, rarified games to replace obvious games. It
thus seems to me that only simple clarity can end all the games.
As I see this: Clarity is not something that someone else can give, it
is one's own nature when self-constructed impediments are absent. In
simple clarity, there is no "outside" for this outsider to even begin to
think about existing or not existing. It's one thing to philosophically
propose "no outside" - it's another thing to truly live it in each
moment, regardless of what arises in this moment.

-- love -- Dan
________________________________________________________________________

...i used to read all about how to be a better person at the expense of
my social life. consequently no people were in my life. i just read
about them. in that moment i realize love and sharing was all i wanted
and longed for. well, you know me, and i am no secret-- landed me in
the looney bin. i'm back out and my only slogan goes kinda like this:

"if you have ever loved, you are loving right now. . .
if you have ever had a tuna sandwhich you are eating it right now. ..
if you have ever watched a movie, you are watching it right now. ..
now is now
now is
now
please slap me if i ever write like this again. ...

heart sent ...
heart received
gen
________________________________________________________________________

Old Hag+Tim G.

Response to TimG dear:

i'm just an old woman who lives on a garbage pile. What do i know?
________________

Posts from Sunday:
With respect, and gratitude, Tim G, for all the intriguing posts you
have been offering lately:

Tim: The content of consciousness is not of interest in coming to the
nondual state. Rather, consciousness itself is the focus. Don't focus on
what you're full of, focus on that which causes the illusion of
fullness.

Why "focus" at all?

Because consciousness always has a focus, of some sort. It has to, or it
would be unconsciousness. It always has some sort of content. Without
content, consciousness ceases to be.
In Nisargadatta's words, it would take a million years to rid yourself
of every desire. That is not the way to emptiness.

There ain't no "way" to emptiness. No way!

Sure there is. Abandon all false ideas. The door will open. Walk through
it. It really is *that* simple. Rather, take the focus *off* the
fullness, and the "cup" will naturally empty itself.

Stop right there! take the focus off. Period. OK, that's another way of
looking at it. By taking the focus off the false, you're inadvertently
putting the focus on the door to the real (the I AM). Again,
consciousness ALWAYS has content of one sort or another. Sure, your
explanation is as good as mine. I think we're saying the same thing.

I understand what you are saying Tim, and it is a good point. Trying to
take it a step further. Why study the cup? Why "study" anything?

To understand it. If you don't understand yourself, you're walking in a
fog.

How about letting all focusing, all studying go?

If that were all it took, then sleeping 24 hrs/day would result in
enlightenment. Sorry, doesn't wash.

Just...see...that there ain't no difference....between the cup....and
anything else....we ARE the cup, AND its fullness, AND its emptiness.
That's all.

Not enough. You're describing "reality" in positive terms. Reality can
only be described in the negative. Not this, not this, not this, until
only THIS remains. Everything has to be negated, or you get stuck
halfway in the witness state (which is where 99% get stuck). Such a
state is a clearer reflection of the Absolute than "everyday life,"
that's all. It isn't the Absolute, really BEING the Absolute. The
Absolute is absolutely beyond anything describable, anything definable,
beyond time, space, body, mind, stars, supernovas, universes, ideas,
memories..... and you propose to describe THAT in positive terms? "I am
That" is the biggest lie ever told.
"I AM" is much truer.

With Love,
Tim
-----
________________________________________________________________________

Xanma

Here's a quote from Papaji:

"You simply have to watch:
where does mind arise from?
Where does thought come from?
What is the source of this thought?
Dive together with this mind
to its Source from where it began.
Then you will see that you have always been Free
and that everything has been a dream.

Watch your thoughts come from nowhere.
If something comes from nowhere
how can it be anything?
Anything must come from somewhere.
If it doesn't come from somewhere it is nothing at all.
So if thought comes from nowhere it must be nothing at all,
because only nothing comes from nowhere.

It's easy.
________________________________________________________________________


>You had suggested to undress, and yes, I am undressed. This moment.
>What I am wearing is totally transparent to any who "see", that is to
>any who "be" according to your way of expressing this.

Dan,

This is beautifully put - "What I am wearing is totally transparent to
any who 'see'."

Krishna Menon said that what we take ourselves to be, is what we see.
So, personalities see personalities, and being sees being.

Love,

--Greg
________________________________________________________________________

Tim;
<snip>
> In Nisargadatta's words, it would take a million years to rid yourself
> of every desire...

Empty every desire of yourself. Desires rise and die away, without me in
them. The bodymind is what it is, I am not it, desires rise and fall in
the bodymind they do not rise and fall in me. I am no thing, there is
nothing in me. I am in everything. No big deal.

love, andrew
________________________________________________________________________


To the crowd appearing on the screen of my heart..

Reading through over a hundred posts since yesterday morning.. has
afforded an internal razor's edge. Allowing wise and wacky thoughts
alike to pass through me.. listening for those which are my teachers.
Remaining unformed.

I hesitated some in posting what I did about Advent, as it might appear
as conceptual ideation thrust upon a list ostensibly eschewing concept.
I was moved, however, to do so from a current beyond my ideas. I enter
each cycle authentically surrendering form.

I listen to all the voices expressing here.. finding each within myself
Yesterday I heard..

only self.. no self/
desire.. desireless /
empty .. full /
positive.. negative /
focus.. no focus /
form... formlmess/
delusion.. nondelusion

I am grateful for all.. these which I've extracted particularly hold
Life for me in this moment.

Jerry: I acknowledge suchness and intelligence. By inquiring Who Am
I?, I acknowledge suchness. By praying to God, I acknowledge
Intelligence.

Suchness is the mark of Intelligence, and Intelligence the
mark of Suchness. Acknowledging Intelligence, the Suchness
is known; knowing Suchness, potential of Intelligence is
known.

Gratitude is not separate from inquiry.

Greg: The enquiry comes to an end when desires (and other thoughts and
feelings) are seen as nothing but arisings in consciousness, happening
to no one. The supposed owner of the desires is seen as nothing other
than a thought, or another object arising in consciousness.
Consciousness is seen as our nature, not the body/mind complex.

Dan: Ending the game isn't easy, because we tend to invent
games within games, rarified games to replace obvious games.

As I see this: Clarity is not something that someone else can give, it
is one's own nature when self-constructed impediments are absent. In
simple clarity, there is no "outside" for this outsider to even begin to
think about existing or not existing. It's one thing to philosophically
propose "no outside" - it's another thing to truly live it in each
moment, regardless of what arises in this moment.

Andrew: Desire observed in the present in its arising without judgement
or looking ahead to its fulfillment or nonfulfillment is understanding
and contains no suffering. Suffering is in looking back and condemning
desire or in looking ahead to its anticipated result.

Xan: Yes. That which has no form or personality confronts that which
identifies as qualities and comparisons through presence alone.
I like that - nondelusion is nonlacking.
All perceived fragments are undermined by what is whole.

Tim: Rather, take the focus *off* the fullness, and the "cup" will
naturally empty itself. Take the focus of consciousness off its
content, and put it on consciousness itself.

xan: ~~~According to me, focus *is* the cup. Both are words denoting
location and specificity which do not exist in emptiness.
~~~~~~~~~
And to the host of other wise quotes submitted, may I add..

"You have already been cleansed by the word that I have spoken to you.
Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by
itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in
me." John 15 3-5


Thy Will Be Done
Thy Will Be
Thy Will
Thy
..
.

Observing, reflecting with, and loving the crowded One appearing upon my
screen.

Christiana
________________________________________________________________________

Xanma

NON-DWELLING
Hui-Hua

Monk: What should the mind dwell upon?

Hui-Hua: It should dwell upon not dwelling.

M: What is nondwelling?

H: It means not allowing the mind to dwell on anything whatsoever.

M: What does that mean?

H: Dwelling upon nothing means that the mind does not remain with good
or evil, being or nonbeing, inside or outside, emptiness or
nonemptiness, concentration, or distraction. This dwelling upon nothing
is the state in which it should dwell; those who attain it are said to
have nondwelling minds-in other words they have Buddha minds.

excerpt 2:

M: When the mind reaches the state of not dwelling upon anything, and
continues in that state, won't there be some attachment to its not
dwelling upon anything?

H: If you are fully aware of a nondwelling mind - a mind that remains in
the state of nondwelling. If you are fully aware of a nondwelling mind
in yourself, you will just discover that there is the fact of dwelling,
with nothing to dwell upon or not dwell upon. This full awareness in
yourself of a mind that dwells upon nothing is known as having a clear
perception of your own mind or your own true nature. A mind that dwells
upon nothing is the Buddha mind, enlightenment mind, uncreated mind. It
is what the sutras call "patient realization of the uncreated."

When you finally understand, your mind will be free from both delusion
and reality. A mind that is truly free has reached the state in which
opposites are seen as empty. This is the only freedom.

________________________________________________________________________

When I was a child a child and occasionally as an adult, as I was
falling asleep, I would sometimes have this experience. I was a very
tiny dot in the corner of a doorless, windowless white room. I would
feel this tremendous pressure in my heart chakra. On the other corner
of the room a glob of what appeared to be clay would grow until it took
over the entire room, taking me, the tiny dot over. I would disappear
into the clay and while expanding, become one with it. Then the room
would disappear, as the entire universe and universes also became one
with me, now the clay. I, the infinitely large clay that was
everything, would suddenly be an itty bitty infinitesimal hole. This
hole would keep getting smaller and smaller. The smaller the hole
became the more intense and tight the energy of All that is became. At
that point it would frighten me and I would wake up (or fall back into a
deep sleep. Depends on which side your looking from. LOL). I had this
experience until about 10 years ago when I decided to get past the fear
and stay with it. I don't have any recollection of what happened, but I
never had the experience again.
No need, since lesson learned.

Love, elaine :)
>>
________________________________________________________________________



This arrived from Petros:

Attended a lecture by Eckhart Tolle at Mahayoga here in
L.A. last Friday night. He keeps the message very simple:
Just focus on the Now. That is the only moment that we can
truly every have, all else is imagination. He's been
teaching and counselling for a decade but it seems that he's
become more popular lately because of his recent book (The
Power of Now), as there must have been sixty people packed
in there to listen to him. And we really had to sit
silently to hear him; Eckhart is a soft-spoken man, he
almost seemed a little nervous to be in front of all those
people.

Harry Dean Stanton, the actor, showed up to hear Eckhart as
well. A lot of people obviously recognized him but in the
spiritual context, they were gracious enough just to smile
and pay attention to Eckhart.
________________________________________________________________________

Although I admit this book can be pretty dry (here's a
reason to celebrate: there's only one more installment
left!), this chapter says something about Siddhis, 'powers',
and it might strike home with some.

--Jerry

The Pathway of Nonduality

by Raphael

Chapter 14

The Siddhis

Q. When one speaks of yoga or of Oriental teachings, the
so-called 'powers' or siddhis come immediately to one's
mind. But what are these powers?

A. Much confusion and misunderstanding can arise with regard
to this particular topic. Quite apart from the correct
attitude of consciousness that is required towards the
different kinds of yoga or traditional Doctrines, we have to
recognize the fact that many conceive of Realization as the
achievement or acquisition of the so-called 'powers'.

First of all, we must make some distinctions. In
psychological terms, a power is a faculty or an ability
inherent in matter itself, and it may be considered as a
quality or attribute of it. In philosophical terms 'power'
means 'possibility': the possibility of a being to perform
or express an act.

We should make a further distinction between what is called
a 'psychic power' and a psychological faculty; the latter
bears reference more specifically to the mind in general.
The mental perception, that everyone has, is a psychological
faculty which concerns the psyche and not the soma aspect.

The psychic power as such represents the development of
particular 'senses' or sensory organs which grants the
ability to 'hear' and 'see' upon planes that go beyond the
dense physical one. As at the physical level we have the
senses which bring us into contact with the gross-material
plane, so too at the subtle, supraphysical level we have
other senses which connect us with that existential level or
plane.

Besides physical, we have psychic seeing (clairvoyance), and
hearing (clairaudience) by which we perceive subtle objects
and sounds which escape the ordinary range of physical
perception. We can say that a psychic power is a faculty of
the 'psyche' existing as a reality apart from the
physicalbody-soma.

The majority seek psychic powers for two reasons:

(1) because, being a simple extension of the empirical self
upon the subtle psychic plane, the self is not hampered by
them, rather it is magnified and strengthened. The majority
are after the expansion of their ego, not its solution and
transcendence.

(2) because they represent a compensation for the weakness,
failings and limitations of individuality.

Similarly, at the physical level many are after wealth,
which is a material 'power', in order to feel stronger, more
confident and ego-centered. Not having found security and
peace of mind within themselves they compensate this failing
through wealth. In fact we know that wealth becomes an
all-important compensation for those who are not. Even
intellectual 'power' may be a compensation. The wealth given
by the psychic power meets this need, it compensates for
many a deficiency of the empirical self because, in truth,
the ego is not.

However, if psychic powers belong to the self, and the
worldly or empirical self is marked by uncompleteness, by
lacking and by relativity, then the powers inherent in it
belong to the realm of avidya.

An entity may be clairvoyant, clairaudient, levitating,
telepathic, psychometric, etc., but this is of little
importance because such a person belongs to and moves within
the sphere of avidya.

Those who are after the psychic power for its own sake may
represent interesting subjects for psychoanalysis. At times
these persons waste an entire existence in order to become
mediocre clairvoyants, extra-sensorially perceptive
'mediums', etc.

With reference to psychic powers there is a very revealing
anecdote concerning the Buddha. As the story goes, one day,
upon entering a woody place, the Buddha met a meditating
'santon'. On seeing the Buddha, he went out to meet him and
asked him to express his opinion about the axcesis he had
carried on for so many years.

A large river was nearby and the 'santon', lifting himself
up into the air, crossed over the waters. When he came back
before the Buddha he urged him to pronounce himself. The
Buddha, not in the least ruffled, asked: "How long has it
taken you to acquire the power of levitating?" The 'santon'
replied: 'Twenty years'. And the Buddha said: "With five
rupees I can cross the river in a boat is as few as five
minutes."

The 'power' is not Realization of the atman because, being a
faculty, it belongs to prakriti. 'Powers' operate within the
sphere of duality; they imply three factors: an entity
holding a power, the power, and an object to which the power
is applied. The power, by operating in the dual and multiple
world, cannot be the fount of ananda, cannot be the source
of Completeness-Pax profunda which is connatural to Being.

The greatest power that can be attained is that of
Illumination, or the satori, the Para Vidya, the gnosis and
this power does not belong any longer to the psychic realm
but to the strictly spiritual one. In this sphere the
individual, with all his toy-powers, no longer exists
because he is completely transcended.

Q. However, we know of true Saints who use powers.

A. They are Saints not because they use powers but because
they are Illuminated. If occasionally they use some psychic
faculties, it is to make an emotional impression upon the
massess -- which in fact need such things -- rather than to
indicate the pathway of Illumination.

A Saint may make use of powers as a momentary means by which
to draw the attention of the unbeliever, while mere
individuality needs power as psychological compensation.

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