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Xan offered:

Someone asked Ramana what he saw when people came to him.
He said, "Someone who doesn't know what he is."

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Skye wrote:
I had just received the book you referred to in that post,
from amazon.com and am looking forward to reading it now
more than ever. There is a sense that this middle way is
what i have a natural tendency to resonate with :-)

3. Jay Garfield. THE FUNDAMENTAL WISDOM OF THE MIDDLE WAY:
Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika. Oxford Univ. Press, 1995.
(Very clear philosophical explanation of Nagarjuna's
Treatise onthe Middle Way, in Western terms)


Greg:
This is an outstanding book, and has gotten very good reviews in Buddhist
publications. It is extremely clear, and does a magnificent job of
avoiding two common errors in interpreting Madhyamika: essentialism and
nihilism.

skye:
I don't know whether academics would agree but i also
find the middle way teachings, in those old monastery wood
block translations of the ancient chinese masters by Charles
Luk "The Transmission of the Mind Outside the Teachings"and
"Ch'an and Zen Teaching" (if only he had lived to translate
them all). His dharma vocabulary is a marvel to behold.
eg....The Master said both notions of the worldly and the
saintly are "obstructing gold"

There is nothing special about what i do each day,
I only keep myself in harmony with it (surroundings),
Everywhere i neither accept nor reject anything,
Nowhere do i confirm or refute a thing.
When mindless of surroundings there is no need for Ch'an


greg: Many interpreters of Nagarjuna mistake his verses
about existence to mean that *there is* a transcendent
Reality behind samsara.

skye: Or that there *is not*.
As you say "the only way to stay clear is the Middle Way".
It is this which silences my thoughts! though this student
is still only
in the process of "developing a mind that does not abide
anywhere". Diligently walking within the void of all things
which are not created, not annihilated, not impure, not
pure,
not increasing and not decreasing.

greg: Other interpreters mistake the verses about
non-existence to mean that nothing exists in any way
whatsoever. Garfield does a very good, very clear job of
showing how either one of these errors also entails the
opposite error as well, and that the only way to stay clear
is the Middle Way.

Plus the translation is graceful and the commentary simply
worded (well, except for a few professional-philosophers'
terms here and there).

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Xan:

> I am a firm believer
> in, "you are always in the right place at the right
> time." If we
> doze off or shut down that is also 'grist for the
> mill' of transformation.
>
> Grace is very efficient - nothing is wasted.


Tim Harris:

Good point xan. I believe that you are always at a
place and a time (here/now) and the 'rightness' is the
fact that it could be no other way. This is the point
of 'surrender'. Whether one puts their 'heart' into
that 'isness' or not is important. Eyes open, eyes
shut, the ride is the same.

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Also from Tim H:


Breathe in then out
'it is' what you make it
Breathe in then out
you can 'hold' it
but you can't take it

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Michael Martin:

> What the Master recognizes will depend on the
> individual. He might recognize an egomaniac or he
> might recognize a True Seeker.


Tim Harris:

An interesting point Michael. What do you think about
the idea that, in some sense, the egomaniac is an
inexhaustible 'fuel' source 'within' the true seeker?

It is the 'I get knocked down but I get up again'
attitude or, more topic specific, 'I fall asleep but I
wake up again.' :o) Is it not this 'dynamic' that is a
built in 'fire' to balance and harmonize 'one' with
'what is'? The key then, is one's ability (desire) to
place the egomaniac in the back seat allowing the true
seeker to drive.

Back seat drivers are annoying yet, sometimes they do
have good points to make.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: "Jackie Leve"
Subject: On Critical Thinking : Apart of or from 1 (One)?


Dungeon Masters

We are the creaters, the Dungeon Masters if you will
As we go through life it is our dungeons that we fill
We say one day we will clean it out with goodness and light
Someday we will make what's wrong right
But someday is always tomorrow, can't take it right now
I really would like to clear it out but I am not sure how
So we throw failure on to the pile and shove it further away
It's funny how we react when it returns on another day
"Why me?" we scream and shake our fist
I guess we just added anger to the list
We walk around as victims, like there is nothing for us to do
We mindlessly claim, it can't be me it must be you
For if we really take this problem and call it our own
It is only weakness that we have shown
Take responsibility for how we go through life?
We would rather stab ourselves with a knife!
So we keep adding to the dungeon day after day
Hoping someone else will come by and sweep it away
So look deep inside yourself, see the work that must be done
You can't clean out the dungeon if you continue to run
- J Leve 1990 (revised 1999)


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From: umbada@xx.xxxxxxxxx.xxxxxxxxxxx.xxxxxx
Subject: Rockettalk

something to consider:

http://www.rockettalk.com

(voice email)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ben writes (referring to a previous posting from Xan):

I connect with Nisargadatta Maharaj, and appreciate this
passage. I don't even know how to word this question. I
have started and restarted several times....


I do not want to waste words, and I want to be clear. This
passage "when I see that I am fill in the blank. Is this
seeing a spontaneous event, or is it something that happens
after years of practicing a particular sadhana? I think
that I am tied up in this effort v.s. no effort v.s.
effortless. It is clear one day, and the next it wears me
out.


I think there are other questions behind this, but I would
like to ask from the core of my confusion. I appreciate
your and any other member thoughts.

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