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PETROS

...all along many of us on the list have seen glimpses of the ironic
truth, that a mailing list by its very nature is in a paradoxical
relationship to what is supposed to be "beyond words" and linear thought
and
concepts. Many, many times the question has been posed, by various
people in
various ways, "How do we resolve this paradox?"

The idea of moving into a "silent" period seems like a logical one. And
lovely!...

...I got my black jumpsuit, my Nikes, and my purple shroud. The
Mothership awaits! Anyone for pudding?...
________________________________________________________________________

LYNNE

Chris at Anunda gave me permission to share this with you all.

"Wait! Am I crazy? Do I want to be reduced to the nothingness of a
void just to be one? No way. Mind get busy and create everything again
just as it was."

"And it comes to pass that I created the heavens and the earth."

Each person on this list
or in my life, is a mirror ...
a mirror of some part, aspect, archetype or personality of me
that is either seeking expression, that I love
or that I reject
within my self ...

If I cannot make peace between these personality archetypes
within myself ... I cannot hope to make peace
between myself and my mirrors ...
you the people on this list.

So I read the words you write ... and I feel a reaction ...
go into the void, the vastness, the no-thing ..
and return ...

And, of course you are still here ...
but is my reaction to you still here?
Is there still conflict ..?

If there is no reaction, no conflict,
then what I was feeling was either the energy
behind the words you wrote .. which I took on
or some aspect of me reacting to your words ..

The fact that there is no longer any reaction
after returning from the void/no-thing
shows that there is no longer any issue ...
shows that the 'archetype/molecule' is at peace
at one ... with the other aspects of me

If there is still a reaction of any sort,
this shows me that the mirror is alive and well (still needed)
and that there is further work which needs to be done
for at-one-ment to be found ...

So I ask inside my self ... what is the mirror ..
what unconscious memory is being triggered
what is this mirror causing me to remember from the past
that is unresolved ...

and I return to the void/no-thing as often as necessary
until the answer appears ...

and from the answer, I learn, I evolve ..
and return again to the void/no-thing
with the answer
until the mirror disappears ....

By resolving the inner aspect
then I am free ...
free to make a choice as to whether
to stay here on this list (or any other)
or not to stay.

I would like to thank the people on this
and other lists
for what you have allowed to grow
in me is the consciousness to put into the written word
that which I knew
but could not speak ...

You have allowed me to develop an articulation
of words that do not seem to inflame or alienate ...
and so another aspect of myself
finds at-one-ment from within
its own self judgement.


Love,
Lynne
________________________________________________________________________

Posted by FIRAK

Maitreya Ishwara
www.ishswara.com

Unverified Beliefs

Beloved Friends
Love
The following excerpt from The New
Dawn is a challenge to your authenticity.
No concept about truth is going to end
all suffering just by believing it. That
only happens when the ego dissolves
permanently. And mostly follows
purification of all systems with silent
awareness.
Take your Absolute beliefs as a
hypothesis and verify them with direct
experience. Beliefs alone don't help
much, even if they are true.

Love
Maitreya

From: The New Dawn

You are That

Source is multidimensional.
The ultimate truth is unembodied, intelligent awareness
of consciousness. That, contains the potentiality for all
creations in all space/time. Yes, you are That. But no
embodied master can have more than a glimpse of That.
Hence the mystery is never fully revealed to humans
ever. The ultimate enlightenment is access to non-Being,
the seventh body of God, the beyond.
Non-Being is the void of creation. When you say I am
That, it is also inaccurate because no human can create
or destroy the universe. Yes, you and everything are
made from That, but Source is also the mystery that
cannot be known until you leave the body for the last
time and all traces of your soul and being have
disappeared forever. Then and only then are you fully
That.
The Self is the first stage of enlightenment, the fifth body
of Source. It is not just something to recognise, It can
only be discovered. Paramatman is the sixth body of
Source. Full enlightenment gives access to the void, the
seventh body of Source. That is non-Being, the void of
creation. No human can stay there for long. When they
return to the body the fragrance lingers around them, yet
they can’t say much about it because there is no mind or
any memory of That.
Non-Being is beyond the capacity of anyone to articulate
or remember fully. In the spiritual world imagination is a
major trap. When a seeker declares, I am That,
unfortunately that ‘I’ is his ego. The remedy is to stick
rigorously to direct experience.
More helpful for a seeker is the negative, I am not, only
That is. However, this is just another belief until it is fully
realised. The truth believed is a sweet lie.
The solution is to become an inner scientist and verify
the hypothesis by direct experience. This does not
contradict the teaching that says you just have to stop
and recognise who you are. But it does require that the
seeker is not actively guided into believing they just have
to recognise the truth. Truth is not so cheap.
Silence is the answer. The gap of silence a seeker
experiences is a taste of the truth. It becomes
permanent by remaining in the gap of silence for as long
as possible, every day until the ego dissolves forever.
The fundamental misunderstanding is that everyone is
inherently free already.
The truth is each soul is created by That to be deeply
ignorant and slowly evolve in consciousness until the
moment of permanent awakening. Existentially and
functionally every seeker is the soul until they enter the
Self. When that happens it is for the first time for each
soul. You cannot remember what you don’t know. No
seeker has any memory of That.
The time of awakening is fixed by Source. There is
nothing to do but what you feel, with the awareness that
your feeling is the voice of Source guiding you moment
to moment. Surrender to What is, gives freedom
herenow.
Silence is the answer. Those who are close to awakening
will feel pulled into silence.
There is only Source playing all the parts, but seekers
don’t remember where they came from. Ramana’s
enquiry is perfect. Ask: Where do I come from? And wait
silently for silence.
________________________________________________________________________

JAQUELINE+FIRAK

J.

i am thankful you are back,,,,there is something in the way you bring
your
words,,,that has moved me.

what is the address of advaita?

F.

thank you,
and what a beautiful innocent question,,
"what is the address of advaita?"

the void,
i would say,
Poste restante.......
<:)

love
firak
________________________________________________________________________


Posted to the Nonduality Salon Guest Book by ARUNA BYERS

All this mental dialog about satsang leaders is totally
missing the point. The satsang leader points the mind to
the silence to know the Self and instead of going to silence
the writers on this page are focusing thoughts on the
satsang leader.

JAN

Pointing to silence is what a satsang leader is supposed to do. How well
does (s)he succeed in this? Anyone can appoint oneself as satsang
leader. Does a recorded message from the satsang leader has the same
effect as his/her physical presence? If yes, what if the recorded
message is silence? Still the same effect? If yes, save money and the
environment and stay home... Better still, pack your backs and leave for
one of few peaceful African countries, where silence is abundant and one
can live very well from just $2000 a year, never to be disturbed by
Internet, telephones, traffic pile ups, TV and radio.
________________________________________________________________________

LARRY+GLORIA+XAN+GREG

L.

>I've been trying to sort out a muddle that's been in my mind for a long
>time. It's a muddle between yogacara and madyamika, awareness and
>emptiness, and it goes like this. Emptiness (I think?) is The Leap Of
>Synthesis. By that I mean if you put two things together, any two
>things. you get something else. A thing is not only more than the sum
>of its parts; it is OTHER than the sum of its parts. But it is
>dependent on the sum of its parts. Somehow or another this must apply
>to both physics and perception. Now the Doctors Of Emptiness say that
>awareness is empty, meaning it is synthetic. The Doctors of Awareness
>also say awareness is empty. But they mean awareness is empty of
>phenomenality, it has no parts. Therefore, there is a distinct
>difference of meaning of "emptiness" as it applies to awareness. Is
>this correct? Is there a doctor in the house?

GLO

We want to answer all calls for assistance. Much as I hoped someone
more qualified in Buddhism would take this one, until then please settle
for a paramedic. Some say the Buddha taught apparently conflicting
truths only out of compassion and being pragmatic about the needs and
capacities of different learners. The expression of his purpose to
liberate all beings required this, so a distinction is made in
Madhyamika doctrine between relative truth (based on empirical
experience, it has provisional validity and is useful) and absolute
truth (reality) which is void (empty of all characteristics by which it
can be named or defined) of which nothing can be said, inexpressible!
Actually both the Yogacara school and the Madhyamika school are two
major branches in the Mahayana tradition. Another way to look at such
different schools arising is that they are the result of the Buddha's
teachings being understood differently by the hearers.

The Yogacara is often referred to as "mind-only" (consciousness-only)
school, which upholds the doctrine that all phenomena are empty because
all arises from the mind. (Things in themselves do not have independent
existence or essence; they are all dependent upon other things...hence,
**dependent origination**) Perhaps this is what you mean by "a thing is
dependent on the sum of its parts."

Madhyamika, "The Middle Way" refrains from choosing between opposites
and states that the true nature cannot be defined as either existence or
non-existence, but manifests the characteristics of both. According to
its founder Nagarjuna, the method of rejecting all opposites (dualism)
is the basis of truth..and this is not "just a mental concept" but a
method of actual practice.. attachment to duality means one first grasps
after existence, then clings to emptiness. Or one uses emptiness to
reject existence.

One embraces noumenon to reject phenomena or vice versa...thus creating
disputes, and perplexity. Little does one suspect that there is mutual
identity between phenomena and noumenon. If we divide them and consider
them separately, phenomena are not true phenomena; noumenon is not true
noumenon. The non-dual method to destroy this attachment to extremes
means penetrating into their very nature; it does not mean 'one.'
Non-duality does not necessarily mean unity. Unity is one of the pair,
duality/unity. Hence, non-duality implies non-unity as well. The Middle
Way is to realize what is inseparable - indivisible, what is mutal and
in common within pairs of opposites.

The "discriminating" human mind can never grasp the whole truth. Thus,
such a mind is bound to result in an imperfect understanding of the
world as it really is. So this realization needs to be more than a mere
intellectual understanding. Shantideva wrote:

"Relative and absolute,
These the two truths are declared to be.
The absolute is not within the reach of intellect,
For intellect is grounded in the relative."

Then there is the lovely expression, "True Emptiness, Wonderful
Existence. True Emptiness is not empty!" This is taken to mean that it
is precisely because everything is empty that everything can exist. If
things were truly existent, with a definite and enduring substance,
essence or identity...then no change or flow would be possible. Because
nothing has this enduring nature, everything becomes possible. Don't you
love Buddhism!

Well, thanks for giving me a chance to babble on..You seem to be
basically right about a distinct nuance to the meaning of emptiness
applied to awareness. And I think it's ok to use your mind, keeping in
mind its limitations. Nothing like a thought that clears out some
cobwebs, opens up some new space.

XAN

No doctor, just patience.

First of all - 'muddle' is a symptom of a condition common to humans
called "Trying to understand conceptually that which is non-conceptual."
Treatment: Stop.

Secondly - Applying a program to physics and perception will have no
effect whatever on awareness itself. (Of course, neither does anything
else.)

Third - The terms "awareness" and "emptiness" are both attempts to point
to essential reality which is undefinable. Any attempt to explain the
nature of Beingness will result in discomfort known as "a rash on the
mind" - an unscratchable itch.

The only cure is to stop everything.

Side effects of this cure have been reported as:
peace that passeth understanding
laughter for no reason at all
love
being Beingness

with love

GREG

Let me add to what Xan and Gloria wrote. My info comes from several
helpful books cited below. There are many differences between the two
schools, but there seems to be one principal difference, and I think
your question bears on that. That is, Yogacharins say that
consciousness (they call it mind) *can* exist in the absence of
objects. The Prasangika Madhyamikas say that consciousness *cannot*
exist in the absence of objects. Here are brief descriptions of the
schools, with aspects relevant to your question.

Yogachara
=========
All phenomena are of the basis of mind. There are no objects external
to a perceiving consciousness. This is why external objects and all
other phenomena are empty, because they do not exist independent of the
perceiving consciousness. This consciousness is present whether or not
there is the appearance of objects, so it exists inherently. The final
and most subtle misconception is that subject and object are different
entities. When this misconception is destroyed and everything is *not*
thought or seen to be *different* from the percieving subject, then all
other misconceptions are destroyed.

Madhyamika (Prasangika or Consequence School)
=============================================
All phenomena are devoid of inherent or independent existence. That is,
no phenomenon can exist without relationship with other phenomena.
Because of this mutual interdependence, all phenomena are empty. Now,
what about subject (consciousness) and object (phenomenon)? These too
are interdependent. If the object cannot exist without the subject (as
the Yogacharins say), then the subject cannot exist without the object.
Therefore, consciousness *cannot* be present in the absence of objects.
Consciousness is just another interdependent phenonemon, empty of
inherent existence. When all phenomena including "I" or mind or
consciousness are seen as empty of inherent existence, then all other
misconceptions are destroyed.

There are scriptural bases for both Yogachara and Madhyamika. The
Madhyamikas see themselves as the highest school, and interpret the
Buddha's teachings on mind-only as a compassionate or gauged teaching
for those who have trouble understanding emptiness of inherent
existence. Yogachara is sort of like some interpretations of advaita
vedanta.

Here are some references on the two schools, though there seem to be
more books available on Madhyamika:

1. Jeffrey Hopkins. EMPTINESS IN THE MIND-ONLY SCHOOL OF BUDDHISM,
Univ.of CA Press, 1999. (I haven't read this, it came out in April)

2. Jeffrey Hopkins. MEDITATION ON EMPTINESS. Wisdom Publications,
revised edition, 1996. (This is perhaps the most authoritative
explanation in English on the Prasangika Madhyamika school, and has
about one chapter on Yogachara/Cittamatra).

3. Jay Garfield. THE FUNDAMENTAL WISDOM OF THE MIDDLE WAY: Nagarjuna's
Mulamadhyamakakarika. Oxford Univ. Press, 1995. (Very clear
philosophical explanation of Nagarjuna's Treatise onthe Middle Way, in
Western terms)

4. Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. OCEAN OF NECTAR: Wisdom and Compassion in
Mahayana Buddhism. Tharpa Publications, 1995. (Accessible teaching on
Madhyamika and its differences from Yogachara by a Tibetan teacher in
London)

With love
________________________________________________________________________

Intro's to Sufism;

LARRY

>I know nothing about Sufism but I was thinking I might like to read
>something that is succinct and comprehensive. Any recommendations?

JAN

Read a few introductory books by Hazrat Inayan Khan...

If the search is in vain, put a question on the news groups
alt.islam.sufism and alt.sufi
________________________________________________________________________

MELODY

*On a Sunday afternoon*

Surrounded by chaos,

people talking, motors running,
children running, leaves are blowing...

a hustling, bustling of activity

and yet, it seems so far away
from me;

as if I have been painted
into someone else's picture.

I watch, and only half listen,
nodding and speaking as if on cue.

This picture is not real to me.

No texture, no taste, no fascination.

And yet I watch, and I participate,
as if I belong.
________________________________________________________________________

DAN+HARSHA

Here is my vision statement.

A Vision is needed because --
Nonduality is freedom, not license.

Freedom is responsibility, not avoidance of compassion.

Thus:
Defecating in a public reservoir is not an expression of nondual truth.

For thousands of years, there have been teachers of truth and those
who use true teachings for their own ends.
Those who distort truth are noted for "using the talk" to
"walk their own walk" and reach their own goals.
Teachers are noted for "talking the talk" in service to the Way.

Yes, wolves may come wearing the clothing of sheep:
It is nonsense to think that no one can be set back, no one
can be harmed. The nondual No One *is not* a 007 license
to harm others and claim this is done in the name of love
or to "play a game". The human potential for awareness is real,
and therefore the possibility for interfering with
or distracting that potential is also real.
One doesn't enter a temple, yell obscentities at those who are
meditating, and then tell them this is a word game to help
them realize truth. One doesn't crash a bulldozer into
a temple and then say this teaches the equality of all things.
One doesn't throw a match on a gasoline spill under a car
in order to show one's state of freedom.
Awareness is appreciation of the context
of the person, not ignorance of it.

"By their fruits ye shall know them"
This is the value of Time: it allows fruits to grow and be shown.
Please observe the fruits of the seeds you sow.
Ignoring what you see is not a path to nondual truth.

-- with love and compassion for all of our growing pains --

HARSHA

Thank you Dan for speaking beautifully and eloquently. For that we bow
to you. You said that "Freedom is responsibility, not avoidance of
compassion. Thus: Defecating in a public reservoir is not an expression
of nondual truth."

Those are strong words Dan but they need to be said. There is much to
reflect on your whole post. Spiritual novices (for lack of a better
term) often confuse nondual awareness with acting "wild and crazy." It
is sometimes even claimed that nutty, rude, or obnoxious behavior on
part of people is proof of their enlightenment since they are not
attached to the behavior. Over more than three decades of being in the
spiritual scene, I have seen quite a bit. There are some real gems out
there Dan and you are one of them.

With love
________________________________________________________________________

LARRY

Bottom line, what is help? Help is love. Douglas Harding said
something like "Loose yourself and gain the world." That process, in my
experience, amounts to, equals, is, comes out as, love. I loved a lot
of people today. Was that helpful? YES!
over and out, LB

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