Nonduality
Hello I'm Ojas de Ronde, director of Phoenix Consulticy.
This is Mira she comes to give Satsang in Amsterdam in the tradition of
Advaita Vedanta.
O: Hello Mira, is this the first time that you give Satsang in Amsterdam.
M: No this is not the first time. I started in January and once a month I
came to give Satsang.
O: But now there are more people who like to hear you and you go now
in the Platoschool.
M: Yes
O: Can you tell what Satsang is, because what I understand now is that
more and more people are interested in it and last time there where more
teachers from Advaita Vedanta and more and more people come. It seems that
it gives a great treasure free for the people. Can you tell what Satsang is.
M: Satsang comes from, it's a word coming from Sanskrit and it means the
company of one own self. So, to make it more simple to understand we can
say that it is an opportunity in space and time to look to ones own Self,
means to be, j ust to be.
O: So it's not your personality but deeper then your personality. To go
deeper then me as eh….
M: Yes it's at the first place you are and then the personality starts.
So that is the teaching.
O: You call it a teaching.
M: It's a wrong word,it's not a teaching. Because if you teach then you have
to learn many things and then there are methods and here is just to drop
all the methods. Because you are already what you search and Satsang
is the opportunity to drop everything Here and Now.
O: Did you realize it.
M: Of course , there is nothing to realize because you are already what
you are.
O: Sounds not so easy for me to understand.
M: Because it's not by understanding that you get it. That is the
very surprising point of Satsang you know. What you are you have
not to understand it, if you understand anything you understand an
object. You understand a new concept, a new idea. Here because
you drop all ideas and concepts then you may realize your true
nature., your true being.
O: Is that possible for a human being to drop all kinds of
concepts and ideas.
M: We are born like this, it is more difficult to learn.
O: When did you realize this.
M: I would like not to answer this question because then I
will put it as label in time and space.
Yet, yes of course I will put it in time and space and it
happened "this none event" happened at the departure, at the death
of my Master.
O: Who was your Master.
M: Poonjaji, called Papaji from Lucknow in India. He was a
discipel of Ramana Maharshi.
O: When was that in time spoken.
M: Last September 1997.
O: But you knew him already longer.
M: I met him in 1968 at the beginning of december and then I
made a long journey with him about the quest of ones own self,
because it was my search. And then at some point I just kept on
my own way and somehow when he died it was like a re-meeting
with my Master and till my great surprise, I thought that my
quest was finished and this was true since a few years, but then
the searcher dropped and that I didn't see before. Because when
there is a search , there is a searcher. And I thought the search
is dropped and that was quite enough.
O: Can you tell me something about the search, you met him in
1968 how did it happen.
M: Oh that is a wonderful story.
O: Can you tell me, will you, would you like to tell me about it.
M: Yes. Well I came to India for the search of reality of my
self. What's struck me was the sentence, there is known a sentence
of Socrates "Know Yourself". And then somehow it spoke to me
directly and I knew " oh that is my search". So I went to India
to search a living Buddha, since I searched a living Socrates on
the way and I didn't find. And so I went there in India,
listening to many Yogi's for three months already near the Ganges
in the north, at Rishikesh mostly.
And at some point I was quite disappointed and quite confused
because every Master gives his own way and everyone thinks and
says Truth. So I decided to leave everything and to live in a
cave, a bit more in the north to see by myself and meditate.
O: You lived in a cave.
M: Yes I lived in a cave but it was looking quite natural when
you live an ascetic life near the nature.
O: How did you get your food.
M: I had some money but it finished after 3 months like my
visa. So I had to decide to go back or not to the West but my
quest was not fulfulled so I could not think to go back. I
decided to stay and to spent my last rupee, my last money on a
last cup of tea. And it was evening I remember very well and at
the last teashop of the village before going to my cave. I had
a book of Kabir in hand and I was alone at the table, pondering
a bit about life. And then suddenly somebody came and asked me
"do you need any help my dear child". And I said ""oh no, thank
you very much" because I decided not to listen to anybody anymore,
you know. Then he said to me "well in any case if you need help
every morning at five I'm at the bank of the Ganga" and he
showed me where. And I said "thank you and I left. So I went to
the cave and the next day I did my day as before. Washing
clothes in the Ganga, meditating, quiet life. But the next night
the same face came to me and telling "well it's maybe me that
you search".
So next morning at five I was there. And when he saw me coming
, this man was sitting cross-legged at the bank of the Ganga, he
laughed wah, wah, wah, he was very happy. So I sat in front of
him and then he said "what do you want".
O: Good question.
M: Excellent question. I was quite naive to tell a big thing in
a small mouth. I told him "cosmic consiousness'.
O: Wauw, nothing less.
M: And if you know more, I want that more, yeh. So then Papaji
said "what do you do for that".
So I said "I meditate". Papaji said "show me". And I closed my
eyes I don't know how much time and when I opened them I looked
to the Ganga , to the sky where a few birds where flying, I
remember and to him. And immediatly I recognized my Master that I
searched for very long.
I recognized him from a time I could not imagine. And I just
bowed down and I said "oh it's so simple. Somehow I got a
glimpse. And then he said "now you go". I said "no I can't". I
was in such a ……you know I could not leave my Master that I
found, that I searched.
He said "you go and when you need me I will come". So I had
to leave. But I read a lot about Zen-stories and so on , so I
felt well , if it is like this then I have to leave. So I went
to the forest in complete extasy. There was a parfume, something .
You know I was out of my ordinairy mind.
And I stayed like this and somehow next day I searched him and
I didn't find this man anymore.
I didn't know his name, nothing. He was not recognizeble by any
sign. So I decided to meet him again and that I had to meet
him , even if I had up to my death I had to wait for him. So
I decided to live on that same spot where we met. I left the
cave and lived there.
O: On the bank of the Ganges.
M: On the bank of the Ganges there was a little tree which gave
me shade and don't ask me how I lived, because I just meditated
and later on I heard people from the village gave me food and
so on, but I wasn't much aware. And eight months later meditating
in the evening as usual, I looked behind and he was coming. And
then we stayed together. (she laughs happily and lovingly).
O: It is beautiful.
M: It's a beautiful story.
O: You meant you stayed together or you visited him.
M: He came for a month, he came every four o'clock with food
and answering questions to me and then at some day he woke me
up very early in the morning to make a big walk with him.
And we went to Putaltjie a beautiful place a few hours from there
by foot and it was the first time I could be a whole day with
him. And for me it was great and from then he had to leave, he
was a nomad somehow. And he said to me "now I go' and I asked
him to accompany him. He said "no I never travel with someone,
specially western woman". Then I again asked him and he said "okay
when I tell you to go, you go". And then I travelled with him
and from that time on I stayed with him many years.
O: Did you ever introduce him to Europe or to the West.
M: Somehow when we where on the ways on our walks we where
meeting seekers, Western seekers.
And at some point one German seeker invited him to the West in
1971. So it's not me who introduced him because he was invited.
And of course I followed him on all his trips in that time.
O: What did you do in the West, traveling.
M: Traveling to the Satsang. To go to houses where seekers where
asking to come and to go to some Christian monasteries and it
was very very interesting and beautiful, specially in Italy because
my Master somehow was giving a new spirit and a new
understanding, much more inner from a few sentences of Jezus. And
the monks where very happy. It was very beautiful and I got
reconziled with Krishna, Christianity. Otherwise I didn't find any
answer there.
O: So you went for example to Assisi or to where Theresia of
Avalon was living.
M: Yes to Assisi specially. It was a very big meeting and we
saw in Spain a few monasteries. Yes it was wonderful and we
loved it.
O: They understood it.
M: Yes there was an opening at that time you know and to see
that Jezus was such a great Enlightened man was beautiful of course.
O: Do you know that the pope is now writing an encyclic and it
will come out in autumn, to tell all Christians not to listen
anymore to this Eastern messengers.
M: Why specially?
O: Because he says they tell us that God is inside our hearts
and that's not possible for a human being, that is arrogance.
M: Maybe it's very arrogant to say that you know, because let
him search outside. I don' t think he found it still. Let him
search you know. And about God I don' t see arrogance in it
because we don't say "we are God or I 'm God". We say "search
who you are and then you get answers and then you may not speak
more about God, because you know something else". God may come
after this, who knows. Let him search first who he is.
O: That sounds…
M: And you know it is for everyone, you don't need pope or any
man, any human being. It is his birthright to know who he is.
The only trouble is that education is not good enough, it gives
false concepts. So Satsang is a place where at least some
indication very simple, very direct and very natural is given,
that's all.
O: I know a lot of people are coming now to Satsang to Isaac
Shapiro and Neelam in Amsterdam and Alexander Smit and all these
people. And a lot of people ask questions about do you need to
be prepared for it, do you need to do first a lot of meditation
or perhaps you go in trips or you go in therapy. And as far
as I see in the flyer here the question is simply "Who am I'.
So is there any need for preparation to come to your Satsangs.
M: I don't believe in preparation, because preparation leads you
to somewhere very far in your life, you need many years. And
after all you are never ready, psychological you are never ready
for something . This question "Who am I " is not a psychological
question you know. It 's a natural question and it is like an
arrow. You have just to follow the direction of it and it doesn'
t care of any psychology any preparation. It is natural, it is
your natural nature you know. You first are and then all the
things are created. It is just to get a glimps of your being,
that 's all . Once you have a glimpse you can never be confused.
You can play many roles as a child, as a mother, as a big man,
as a pope, but you are not confused they are roles. But first
get a glimpse of your being and then will God will answer all this.
O: But as far as I understand you went to India, you were very
young. You where searching there, you lived an ascetic life and
now you come here in Amsterdam and you say there is no need
for preparation. I 'm a bit surprised.
M: Because nobody told me at that time. I had to search a lot,
Of course we can say that fire has to be big you know. If you
have to ask a question, ask if it was the first and the last
question you put to yourself, you need fire somehow. And you
need determination to finish of this search Now.
The importance is Now, if you say tomorrow I will get it you
will never get it because tomorrow never comes. When you realize
it 's allways now, here. That is why I say you don 't need
preparation, you may need a lot of years to get determined for
this of course. But don 't say that realisation takes time, it
will allways be now.
O: Just now.
M: Yes.
O: Here.
M: Just now and here, there is no other way. So there is no way.
O: It sounds strange for a Western mind who is used to searching
at least and to go for a travel, to go for a goal. We are
very goal-oriënted.
M: But this is not Western or Eastern, mind is the same
everywhere. This is the way of the mind, mind is in time so
mind can not conceive something out of the time. So it creates
years and struggling and goals. What I say is be before any
start of the mind.
O: What do you mean, be before any start of the mind.
M: I don' t know what I mean, I just describe what I see, it 's
a glimpse of the being. Being is just the substratum of any
creation, any start. A mind is something which starts and which is
finishing.
So I don' t speak of a lapse of time. I don't say to have a
glimpse of something which starts and finishes. I speak something
which never started and never end. This is being, but you can' t
understand it , you realize what it is that' s all.
O: I guess now I understand why the pope is so scared.
M: Let him be scared, it is very good for his search. At least
he will search for truth , maybe one day he gets prepared.
O: Because you are going for the real, the absolute.
M: Then what. I don't want to gain again something and win
something which will be lost. What for then . Then I can get
many experiences in life but I wanted something el se .
O: What is happening with suffering in your state.
M: Suffering is there, there are waves. But I don' t get confused
with myself and the waves.
O: Can you explain that to me.
M: Yes being is like ocea n if you like a very traditional image,
the depth of the ocea n and you can 't avoid waves of course. We
have a body, we are men, women, whatever and cir cumstances are
happy, circumstances are unhappy. These are waves for me and this
you can 't avoid. They may pinch you like a mosquito-bite of
whatever. That you can't avoid, but one doesn't get confused oh I 'm
unhappy, no my mind is unhappy or my feelings or circumstances
maybe. And it makes all the differences, you can 't be lost then.
O: So you can have fysical pain and at the same time connected
with the being.
M: Of course, all goes together. Nothing is excluded, nothing.
Suffering, happiness, this is the creation, this is the
manifestation and everything is included in being.
O: I 'm a bit surprised.
M: It is the paradise on earth in the sense that everything is
just happiness. You know I find a deeper happiness to see that
everything is included, it 's life.
O: So you can fall in love, you can have pain, you can feel
attraction, you can feel resistance, the whole you can feel power,
you can feel ambition, it goes on.
M: It goes on, only one thing is whatever comes up you have
somehow the wisdom not to entertain it, not to feed it. You know
if you are very happy, beautiful but don 't get too much stick
to it.
If you are very unhappy you suffer natural but don' t feed it,
don' t make it worse. It is a wave, it comes, it clasp sometimes
and it goes, that''s all.
O: But how is that possible because when I feel, lets say,
toothache and I suddenly feel oh I 'm in the middle of a speech
and I can 't do this and the mind jumps immediatly on the pain
and in a few seconds it is a big thing exactly, how can you
stop that.
M: I don ' t say to stop . That's what I say: you suffer or
you are happy but never confuse never get identified with it in
the sense be and then live and play with it or whatever works.
Live, human being is living whatever lives lifes …….way . So you
can' t avoid this at least this is not my experience.
O: So you are identified with being.
M: Totally and it is not even identification because it is your
own nature,. You are That.
O: Is that what the flyer says "You are That ".
M: You are That probably.
O: I t is a beautiful message. And people near you, you can help
them to reach that state.
M: You know we can never help but if you live what you think
is worthwhile it may influence, it may in that way something may
happen, but that I don ' t know myself. You have to ask them.
O: Thank you Mira.
Second interview with Mira:
My name is Ojas de Ronde I 'm director of Phoenix Consulticy and
this is Mira. She gives Satsangs at the moment in Amsterdam
introducing Advaita Vedanta..
O: Hello Mira. As far as I understand Satsang is being in truth
with yourself and I 'm surprised about the fact that so many
people suddenly come to different Satsangs that are happening in
Amsterdam.
Because is it not so that you can find the truth yourself. Why
is it needed to go to somebody who is called realised or can ' t
you go on your own and search in yourself.
M: Of course it 's a wish but you see the society tells you so
many other things about yourself that one gets confused. Then he
has to search and as we go for a teacher, for any kind of
subject we go for this subject to some guide we know , who has
known himself what 's about. Then the speaking is like this. Few
cases don 't need guides of course. But here in this case you
may need a finger which points out to the moon, which is your
own Self.
So don 't look to the guide but look to where it points out ,
that 's very important.
O: Did you go for a guide in your life.
M: Yes myself somehow I didn 't even think I could do it by
myself. I searched a living Buddha, a living Master who could
guide me. Because I heard a lot of storys about spiritual search
and Zen and Taoïsme and I saw anybody who got a Master. But we
don 't have to make an idol of this Master, he is just a finger
. And then we have to look to the direction where he shows.
That is all..
O: Your Master i s Poonjaji.
M: Poonjaji yes, it 's this one (she points to a photo) . And I
have to say my own authentic search at some point took over to it.
O: Can you explain that to me.
M: Yes but this is very personal and this may not happen to
anyone, but since you asked a personal question . At some point
my own Master became an obstacle to me because of my many
relations with him. Somehow I was a bit stuck to the finger I
was looking to the direction and to the finger and this finger
had absolutely to be removed. So that 's why I say at some point
I had, I was not sure enough to listen to the authenticity of
my search. But of course it 's not apart from this. This is
really the Master. What we call Master is not a form nor a name
of course.
O: It must have been very extraordinary for you because here is
a flyer and I see that you are called the second wife of your
Master and I see the strong search in you and at the same time
you lived with him.
M: Yes this was a surprise for me to, you know. I didn 't
expect this because it was not part of my search. Somehow it
happened and I had to pass through this. But my relation I can
say, the substratum of my search was really Master-discipel and all
the rest came and I had to pass trough this I suppose and that
also makes a beautiful love-story and also difficult to.
I would never suggest to anyone to be the wife of his Master,
trough it is extraordinary it makes it more difficult.
O: How can you stay in your being and be at the same time in
this pattern , you should call it to be?
M: It is a miracle I came out of it, I tell you. It 's a
miracle that 's why I say the authenticity of the search will save
you, whatever circumstances you are put in. That I 'm sure.
O: What do you call the authenticity of your search, what is that.
M: To listen to the truth which tries to speak to you.
O: So it 's not the same as let me say meditating the whole day
or going for therapy.
M: No, no I will say authenticity is really as I said. It 's
to respond to be open now and here, where-ever you are to the
call of your own self. And to be able to follow that voice. It
looks a bit mysterious to speak like this but to me it speaks.
O: Yes for some people it works like when they follow that call
or they go with that call and then they say meditate every day
two, three times.
M: The self will never suggest this you know. This is suggested
by teachers.
O: By teachers yes.
M: The self will tell now. Now be your own self.
O: So actually no meditation.
M: No meditation is required. You know if you are, life becomes
meditation. You speak you are silent, you love you are silent, you
eat you do whatever you want you are silent, this is meditation.
This never starts and never ends, otherwise other meditation you
steal some time and then you meditate.
And who meditates, an individual, ego as they say. Then what is
the difference when the meditation finishes, nothing is transformed
in life or very less. This is superficial dress on being.
O: So good luck for all the meditators.
M: They have to listen that they have to search "who is
meditating, who is the meditator "? They stress on meditation and
I stress on the meditator.
O: So the meditation can be a block. Like you said in the
beginning the fact that I was the wife of my Master was a block.
M: Yes
O: Meditation is a block.
M: Yes whatever role you play is a block. If you believe you
are a good meditator or a bad meditator is one dress more you
put on yourself. For to know who you are really, before any
start, you have to undress, you have to be nude, totally nude.
And this is your own nature, you have not to do anything for
that, no effort is needed. For the world it needs effort, you
need to make effort to arrive somewhere. But here you are not to
arrive anywhere, you are already. This is contra………
O: So I 'm a bit in a …… because I like to keep a little bit
space still for meditation, I feel it in myself. So to console my
poor me I did a lot of meditation but it can be a block I
understand.
M: You know meditating is very good in the sense that it gives
you another taste then you have in ordinairy life. It is an other
kind of distraction which is good. I mean it gives you some
peace of mind, some taste, something. But at some point you have
to drop this, that 's all.
O: That brings me to another point that is very personal, but for
a lot of people in Amsterdam very common I know from the sixties
when I was using LSD it helped me a lot to open up.
M: Yes.
O: And what is your idea about drugs and realizing yourself. Is
it the same like block that at a certain moment doesn 't help
anything to open up for the self or are you suggesting not to
do it at all.
M: I don ' t suggest anything. We can try many things why not
and in fact drugs may have helped to open to some other reality.
I myself tasted once. But you have to understand that what you
realize through drugs for example, through any mean, so through
meditation to, you will lose it.
Why, because there is a mean, it starts with something, something
else. So it depends on the mean.
When you don 't have the mean anymore then what happens, you lose
it.
O: You lose it , yes.
M: So if you like this continue. But if you search your own
Self which doesn 't depend on any circumstance and on any mean,
this is not the way.
O: Is that why people who start with therapy need more therapy
or people who start with meditation continue for the whole day, or
people who use drugs they go on.
M: Sure they do want to get it more and more to repeat what
they got as an experience which looks unlike, but you see they
will lose it all the time. All the time they will lose it.
O: So what you suggest is actually very simple and finishing all
these things. Like what I see here in the flyer, is simply
inquire "Who Am I ".
M: This is a good natural way to realize your own nature.
O: And you can just do it.
M: Anywhere.
O: Anywhere.
M: Get determined to realize it, that 's all.
O: Aha.
M: Because it 's no use to repeat this question also all the
time, then it becomes like an ritual or an mantra or whatever.
It is not to be repeated, it is just an arrow. An arrow and
then you get to the point, that 's all. It ' s a very good mean
that Ramana Maharshi gave us.
O: Follow the sense of I.
M: Follow the sense of I, yes you can say that. Follow it,
never land anyshere.
O: Never land anywhere, oh that 's beautiful, thank you.
M: Once you land somewhere again you are in trapp. Don 't land
anywhere , that 's all.
O: Oh that 's a beautiful feeling, like an arrow going, going,
so i t 's a never ending story.
M: Yes.
O: If it is a story.
M: Yes.
O: How can you tell then it 's happening in this moment.
M: Everything is happening now. You know if you think otherwise
it 's because you link with the past. Everything is happening
now. So that arrow to whom we are, to whom I 'm is a kind of
occasion "to be " without dealing with past or future. And it is
where I 'm .
O: So it 's an arrow that is moving, without movement.
M: Yes we have to speak in paradox.
O: Yeh, yeh, aha.
M: Or otherwise you land somewhere.
O: Beautiful, beautiful.
M: You know even if you speak of eternity you land in eternity,
it is not that. You have to speak paradoxal.
O: Aha, is this why you say don 't make effort.
M: Don 't make effort, sure.
O: Just stay in the moment and move with the arrow.
M: And move and don 't move.
O: And don 't move, yeh this is the paradoxical point yes.
M: Yes something is there. I t 's very difficult if there was a
receipe I think every good man would give it you know, i t 's
because we don 't have a receipe we can 't get it exacctly clear
for the mind so we have to speak in paradox.
O: Yeh, yeh I guess that 's why so many people come out to hear
and get a glimpse of it and then because it is not
understandable, this.
M: Yes it is not understandable by the mind and "to be " is not
to be understood. If someone says he understands it, i t 's
false, i t 's something else he understands.
To be is to realize what you are, i t 's another faculty.
Realisation is another faculty. I t 's not understanding, i t 's
not feeling and i t 's not intuïtion either.
O: And not by the senses.
M: No
O: And not by action.
M: No
O: So what is i t then.
M: No mean.
O: (laughs) Ha, ha , ha
M: No mean, try to get it that way (laughs) ha , ha, ha.
O: (laughs) yes, ha, ha, yes
M: Yes, yes, Now!!!
O: Now!!!
M: Now! That 's all.
O: When you do this I can 't ask questions anymore and you are
not a teacher anymore and then!
M: I t 's good, i t 's perfect. In fact there is no teacher, no disciple, no students, no transmission and no teaching.
O: Block, fear, doubt that comes up at the moment.
M: They have to be removed. You have doubt because you are
rooted with the past, because i t troubles your concepts, your
ideas about enlightenment.
O: And the fear is now to fall in the ……
M: You have just to drop this fear, this fear is just an old
habit of your mind. Because your mind will not be a master
anymore, it will be a servant of your own self.
You are used to be mastered by your own mind so you listen to
all his doubts and suggestions and fears.
O: It served me up to now.
M: Yes so now try to make it a servant, don 't listen to your
mind now. Now! That ' s all.
O: The more I say it the more stronger it becomes.
M: It doesn 't matter, let it be strong, you don 't listen to
this strong mind.
O: Mm, i t 's like bungee jumping.
M: I don 't know what that is.
O: You know this sixty metres above the ground and ….
M: Ahh, it is again a suggestion of your mind, again. Where you
will drop, nowhere. Again you see it works very quick.
O: Laughs
M: Where to jump, who told you.
O: Laughs again.
M: Laughter. Like this you know, like this is this Satsang.
O: Aha, aha.
M: I t 's not a teaching i t 's a way to trap the mind that 's
all, so that the seeker at least may get a glimpse. And then
once he gets a glimpse in his life he has not much to worry.
He will feel it goes, but somehow it is a false impression and
this glimpse will burn out slowly or not slowly, it depends you
know by coming back to Satsang, by whatever.
Then it will make clear to him slowly what is his own nature.
O: Yes I got a glimpse, that 's shy there is fear coming
suddenly, not this.
M: Yes old habit. Fear is old habit , let it be there, then
who are you. Fear is not you, whatever you experience, whatever
you see, whatever you feel is not you. Otherwise you can 't
experience and you can 't see it. When you see something it
becomes an object and there is a distance between the object and
yourself. I speak of your Self, I don 't speak of an object. A
fear becomes an object, know I have the fear.
O: Right, but I 'm the fear and it comes up suddenly.
M: You have a fear.
O: I 'm
M: You have.
O: Aha
M: Take this habit, take this habit. If you know you have a
fear it means you have an experience of fear, it means you are
not the fear. The fear is here and someone is there to know
the fear.
Who is this someone who has the experience of the fear. It is
another direction you know.
O: I t 's like you told in the beginning I 'm the wife of
Poonjaji but that 's a pattern in being.
M: Yes, yes, sure.
O: You just see the pattern.
M: Yes it can take any shape. Satsang can take all shapes. You
take distance because i t 's not you, i t 's natural. Only we
are confused, whatever we experience we say I 'm the experience.
No, you have the experience of. I t 's just a confusion because
education is made like this.
O: But will this not take me out of live.
M: I feel very much in life.
O: Yes I see.
M: I don 't think so. At the contrary I think you taste a better
life you know. No I don 't believe in this. And where I can
go. I mean it is included.
O: Yes, it is true, yes yes.
M: Don 't create a fear to be out of life. But those concepts
have to be broken, they are just concepts.
O: So you have exaly nothing to drop, only the identifications.
M: Yes the false identifications.
O: False identifications.
M: Yes identifications are always false.
O: It is always false?
M: Yes I don't see any identification which is true.
O: Eh, sudden pain in my chest.
M: Yes of course your body gets. You have a body which gets
this experience, like this.
It's not an identification it's a fact of your body of your
mind or whatever or levels of yours.
But you are not that.
O: Kidneystones, when I'm totally in pain crawling in the bed.
M: Yes you can crawl in the bed, but you are not this man
crawling in the bed, it is a role it is a body which is like
this, but who has this pain , who has this experience.
O: Yes now it's a memory but when I 'm in it then yeh.
M: Yes but then ask yourself who gets this experience. Of course
you can be fully and totally suffering.
O: Is it possible to be totally in the pain and then still be
aware of it?
M: Well I have to get this experience then I will tell you. I
can only speak about now, so I can 't say more. You know
somebody also asked me a question about that I can 't answer
that. It will be a philosophy and I 'm not a philosopher. I just
speak of now.
O: Yes that 's what I feel. Slowly I can experience this now,
that 's why the fear comes up.
M: Of course you may think logical it is maybe like this but I
refuse to answer questions which is not here and now.
O: So back to the now, I feel free and relieved. That is perhaps
the experience of this moment, what a relieve, yes.
M: So even here you ask who gets this release, who? So that
you don 't land on this freedom now. So you just keep , who gets
this experience of freedom.
O: Aha
M: (Laughs) This is the beauty and then you have a beautiful
life. Life flows through you and is very rich, very surprising,
That is all.
O: I lost my questions, ( both start laughing)
M: That is Satsang you know, that is Satsang.