Click here to go to the next issue.
Thursday, May 3
What allows love to be love? I am not being flippant
here, I really want
to know. It seems to me it is quite easy to talk about
and something entirely different to achieve it, to
practice it, to *be* it.
What *does* allow love to be love?
You asked some provocative questions...
>What is humanity?
That is the property of being human, individually and
> What does humanity have to do with non-dualism.
Humanity collectively subsumes humanity individually
Humanity individually contains humanity collectively
Individual humans have as basic default psychic
the nondual, while collectively, the default
configuration is dualistic.
The conflict between individual default nondual
and collective default (dualistic: right vs wrong, good
serves as a necessary and inevitable evolutionary
which will eventually either break the system, or result
in a new
mutation. Ramana is one of the first such mutants of
Nonduality as a way or movement is gaining in popularity,
same reason that shoes and dictionaries have 'caught on';
potentially a superb tool for the enhancement of
Ramana and others are attractive because they offer tools
which may be applied for enhancement of survival. This is
clear, if we acknowledge that unblemished clarity of mind
nonattachment are useful for the alleviation of personal
suffering, and enhancement of the collective imperative.
>Melody sent in a
> quote from another list criticizing non-dualists for
lack of some
> quality relating to their concept of being human.
Yes, and well deserved. Mimickery and image-seeking, not
mention the thrill of close-pass to the infinite, are
We can see ample examples, close at hand, of the dangers
inherent in the misuse of powerful tools. Adopting
'way' as compensation for personal suffering, does indeed
present the possibility of a new species of sociopath, as
happened via Christianity and Islam.
>A few people
> have raised psychological issues. What is the
> spiritual practice and psychology, non-dualism and
A big question as stated.
All of those occur in individual humans, are reflected to
and back from
the collective, which results in alteration of both
collective. The pronounced tenets of those systems will
to a large
extent, determine the good or bad effects on individual
but the inherent latent functions (side-effects) of those
eventually emerge. We can see some preliminary evidence
dysfunction even now, but the fine-tuning will continue
for a long
> Wilber critic writes that Ramana Maharshi, put
forward by Wilber as an
> example of a highly evolved human being, was
incapable of taking care
> of himself, and was basically disfunctional. Is this
Yes, see above.
Paranoia and Schizophrenia are both emergent evolutionary
Both reflect the radical extremes of functionality which
potentially available for everyone.
The demand of the original nature to re-exert itself is
what venues for this to arise within, how and where and
collective gives permission for this arising, is the real
Formerly, tribal societies allowed and made a place for
the Shaman, the
'wounded healer', generally someone who had gone mad and
What is the difference between genius and madness?
- The Genius uses madness creatively
- The madman uses genius destructively
> do we live our lives?
We resist death until we die.
>Why are there so many question?
Because there are so many undiscovered answers.
You are a refugee, homeless at heart though you have
shelter and money.
This is all temporary. Laughter will change to tears,
laughter. Be steady. Your journey is incomplete.
Hi there Perhaps you would like to have a look at the
Godels Incompleteness Theorem at
It is related to mathematics and logic but is defintely
nondual. It is
thought to be as revolutionary as Einstien theories.
The originality in Goedel's incompleteness theorem is
to mathematical systems. Basically it is the same thing
the Cretan (7th century B.C.), who declared that All
Cretans are liars.
So in a language that I find straightforward it would be
a mute person suddenly uttering "Everything I say is
a lie" and then
never saying anything again.
Is that true or false? Well, it can't be either. This
kind of paradox
arises from self-referencing systems, and it does seem
to nonduality, huh?
> What is the relationship of spiritual practice and
> dualism and psychology?
Why not use some of the various thousands of 'practices'
example, Nisargadatta... "spend as much time with
Beingness as you
can spare, just be") -- and find out, rather than
hand "information" from books, others... Why
not spend some time
Don't listen to a word I say (or anyone else), 'be a lamp
yourself'. Thought can be satisfied and smug, but unless
becomes 'direct experience' -- it's all secondhand
Again, I say this... even as applying to all of the
don't listen to me... follow 'your intuition' only.
"Truth is a pathless land." I quote "the
masters" only because
people are far more likely to pay attention to 'their
> If i can make this better, i would, i am just not
sure how to do
> it. I havent chosen sides, i wont choose sides, If i
> you all and make you forget, that i would do.
Again, you display far greater wisdom and insight than
most of the
other fools ('myself' included) on the list.
Don't worry, when the browser is closed, it is forgotten
instantaneously. If/when the NDS is accessed again, the
again arises along with its perceiver.
Life is a series of discontinuous situations, given
memory or 'obsessive thinking'. It's natural for thought
when there's no use for it... and when it subsides, 'all
this' is gone
as though it had never been.
(hint: it never really has been -- the 'state' of no-mind
'natural state' :-).
The stillness of no-thought.
Past, present, future are
shadows that have dissolved.
If a thought arises, no-thought
Indeed, we are where
With attention nowhere
on nothing, this moment
simply is as is --
and attention focusing
on this or that changes
nothing, anymore than
the arising or departing
of a thought changes no-thought.
There is only everywhere to
be -- and this everywhere
being all-that-is, allows
this as is, to
be perfect simply
by being uncompared
Yes, there is nowhere to
get to, nothing to be gained.
This is the moment of lying
on the deathbed.
This is the moment of opening
character in "The Shootist"
had a simple credo:
'I won't be disrespected,
lied to, or laid a hand on.
I don't do these things to
others, and I require
Nobody saw this movie,
"A character in a movie
requiring other characters
to behave as required,
is a wonderful thing to see.
When others characters
misbehave, they are
behaving as required,
The drama unfolds, each
line occurring inevitably
where it occurs.
When the movie is over,
where have all the characters
When space is enfolded
in a point of no dimensions;
there is no one to make
it friendly for all, safe
for anyone, nor is
there any animosity
Where's the Nondual Marshall?
NDS and ego problems
IMHO, however advanced you are spiritually, you have
still a long way
to go if you haven't conquered or tamed your ego.
Another thing is compassion. If you cannot put yourself
shoes and see a fellow human being with faults you also
have a long way
to go. Ideally of course you should see 'yourself' in
every human being
you meet. For in reality [non-dual] there is only one of
Also if your heart is not overflowing with love and you
irritated ... need I say more?
I am not being preachy here, just honest. I love you all
and am a fan
of each and every one of you. I have learnt a lot from
all of you on
this list and am very grateful.
Let the faultless cast the first barb! [For those who
like to play it
rough, nothing wrong with that as long it is understood
as such ... you
all are a bunch of idiots!] [Sorry cannot give a quick
engage in a playful tit for tat as down here in Kenya the
to the Internet are a nightmare! Plus who cares what you
to say, anyway!?]
Be kind to yourself, [for you are me]. I am head over
heels in love
with you all. Love-Sick Earthling
For me, to be fully 'present' to what one has said, is to
be present to
the movement of my body as it responds to "notions
The 'disconnect' between 'feeling' and 'thought' can
unnoticed. In seeking to 'bridge' the apparent 'split' ,
I have found
the body to be a much more reliable 'barometer' for
there was indeed 'no response' or not.
The body does not participate in the deceptions of the
first i was asleep
then i awoke
first i thought i was doing it
then it was doing me
oh my sweethearts
if i smile you smile
if i frown you frown
if i dance you dance
if i cry you cry
i had no power to awaken
surrender did that
now i babble and am happy
dry up those tears
a feast is being served!
hahahah and hohoho!
peace - storm - michael
God? I know a few hunters that are specifically looking
just for you.
Too serious you suggest? Let me ask you God, how shall
you squeel when
the people you serve come out of the desert and into the
light for a
supper that you called and promised heaven and all you
are rice cakes?
It is hard to explain the ocean to one who has never seen
It might also be noted that a lead pipe, the densest of
carry pure and clean water. If we use the analogy that
love is water,
and that water may be contaminated or combined with many
(sewer water, salt water, milk, blood, muddy water), then
contaminants could all be regarded as 'conditioning.'
to you, all the water of love provided by humans to each
other is mixed
with some contaminants, and is either unsuitable for
washing or is only suited to a particular purpose. You
grant that there
is 'higher love,' presumably love with fewer contaminants
or at least
ones that are not poisonous. In my view, even seriously
individuals can deliver pure water, pure love, at times.
How many of us
have not received enlightened instruction which moved us
someone we *know* is seriously flawed, a Rajneesh or a
DFJ, perhaps our
hometown preacher merely quoting some brilliant passage
from the bible,
something which washed us clean or quenched our thirst?
children, homeless crazies and the like may show us pure
countless animals and plants. My dog Lou loves me
my original point was that 'conscious' people may
unconditional love; but I would be willing to extend that
even to the
unconscious, who after all are representatives of god, or
underlying spiritual order, the divine Ground which is
composed of pure
love. Jesus said, 'if thine eye be single, thy whole body
shall be full
of light.' In order to see the divine, we must have a
Meister Eckhart, in a similar vein, said 'The same eye
with which I
look at God is the eye with which He looks at me.' One
unconditionally sees unconditional love all around.
I continue on this thread because I think these ideas are
that 'conditioned' love is actually 'attachment' and is
bad for people.
An example: I 'love' my child, and I want them to do well
in school or
make the football team or whatever. They do badly or quit
the team, and
I am angry. My love then is *conditioned* by how well the
child does in
achieving goals which are important to *me*.
Unconditional love would
be consoling the child and helping them set new, more
without a whiff of disappointment. As a practice,
unconditional love is
the ideal, and we try to recognize our attachments, which
and are contaminants in the stream of pure love. Thus we
ourselves of negative emotions as we see the damage that
they do, and
through this *practice* of unconditional love we undergo
transformation. This practice, carried out through time,
Thank you for your deep honesty here. I believe that the
letting go of
protective shells that I have done in my life has made me
can feel that place two finger widths to the right of the
across from that muscle-heart. Sometimes, sorrow flows
through there as
sweet as a cool breeze on a hot day. I look at people and
When I do get emotional, sometimes can't tell if I'm
crying, and it doesn't matter at all. It is hard work
though, and often
I am not sure that I'm up to it. (Been in a real funk the
past month or
two in fact. And I've watched myself in horror do things
that I cannot
understand. There can be some real fireworks when you
start letting the
repressed energy up. But, stuffing more down just makes
dear.) Anyway, I wish you well, and think you are just
grand exactly as
Checkin it out with you Guys/Gals:
About conditioning, practice, and grace....
These factors of spiritual unfoldment, which were once
significant separate conditions, now appear to be
dissolving into one
It began at the stillpoint of self, followed by
"knowing" that practice
and grace are really one "process". Then comes
the realization that
grace and conditioning are also one. Soon other factors
fall into line
and I suddenly find myself without conceptual crutches,
freely, going nowhere. It all seems very new, a feeling
wonder in seeming to be "someone else", just
Will somebody please pinch me and see if I'm real. :-)