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Nonduality Salon (/\)

Highlights #282

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From Pass Through Fire, the collected
lyrics of Lou Reed,
contributed by Terry Murphy:

*Magic and Loss - The Summation*

When you pass through the fire
You pass through humble
You pass through a maze of self-doubt
When you pass through humble
The lights can blind you
Some people never figure that out
When you pass through arrogance you
pass through hurt
You pass through an ever-present past
And it's best not to wait for luck to
save you
Pass through the fire to the light

As you pass through the fire
Your right hand waving
There are things that you have to throw out
That caustic dread inside your head
Will never help you out
You have to be very strong
'Cause you'll start from zero
Over and Over again
And as the smoke clears
There's an all-consuming fire
Lying straight ahead

They say no one person can do it all
But you wnat to in your head
But you can't be Shakespeare
And you can't be Joyce
So what is left instead
You're stuck with yourself
And a rage that can hurt you
You have to start at the beginning again
And just this moment
This wonderful fire
Started up again

When you pass through humble
When you pass through sickly
When you pass through
I'm better than you all
Anger and self deprecation
And have the strength to acknowledge it all
When the past makes you laugh
And you can savor the magic
That let you survive your own war
You find that fire is passion
And there's a door up ahead not a wall

As you pass through fire as you pass through fire
Try to remember its name
When you pass through fire licking at your lips
You cannot remain the same
And if the building's burning
Move toward that door
But don't put the flames out
There's a bit of magic in everything
And then some loss to even things out

I am only Laughter,
No Thought.

real time: "A joke, a cosmic message,
I will make a party out of the clean-up"

immediate result: Heart continues,
unimpeded. No- Thing. No cut feet either.

Tony, this is what i am. At least i am
coming to communion with it.

What are you dear friend? My heart perceives struggle
in the Heart. Is this to Personal to ask?
Is it wrong to ask?

Are you not asking?


I look outward into the Littleton community, 17 children &
one adult have been shot to death 4 miles from my home in
the last year, 3 of those in the last month. The graphic
unspeakable horror continues (many lurid details
omitted)... And then I look into this NDS/HarshaSatsang
community. So much could be said, but the words are beyond
articulation at the moment.

[in a separate post, Roger further commented:]

I'm deeply touched by the events, and moved to tears on many
occasions, yet the experience also presents life long
opportunity, silent powerful passion, unfoldment... It is
the very play of life.

For me personally the crux is this: I know at least from
brief experience that I am love, not temporary love
associated with an object but inexhaustible love itself. I
know at least briefly that I'm am truth or knowledge, not
relative ever changing information but knowledge beyond

The natural impulse is, for me, to try and express this in
some way that has an impact on my environment. Wow, how to
do that is an extraordinary challenge. For example we must
address the millennia of inertia known as the Christian
tradition which I believe has a significant responsibility
for perpetuating intolerance in our culture. We must address
our cultural illusion which worships science as our defacto
God, forever going outwards into matter, ignoring Spirit &
forgetting that science can never measure love.
[science/love comment borrowed from Barry Long] We must
address the ineffectiveness, chaos, superstition, ignorance
etc surrounding the most fundamental question of life: 'how
to know God?'.

Sure, there is some ego involved in this because there is
some remaining ego in me (when you see it do me a favor and
let me know). Yet this is a very very practical matter for
me: I have a 12 year old son in the Littleton public school
system, and they found an 11 year old boy dead in a trash
bin here last month.

You see a lot of what I here on these email lists fails to
reach out sufficiently. It's not sufficient to echo the age
old hindu doctrines about the world being illusory. I'm
sure the world ultimately is different than it appears, yet,
as Melody quoted from Osho this morning, the hindu doctrines
are tainted by escapism and are largely ineffective.


I'm more comfortable with the concept of the world
ultimately as an "appearance" rather than an "illusion".
Some people translate "the world is an illusion" into "the
world does not exist". This undermines practical action in
the world as well as undermining the spiritual quest.


I agree with what you are saying Roger. Seeing the same
essence in others, naturally there is a desire to help when
we see suffering. For truly who is suffering when others
are seen to be suffering. Is it not the I?. Suffering is
unavoidable. It exists at every level. Some ignore it
(until it comes very close), some accept it (perhaps as fate
or will of god), and some can neither accept it nor ignore
it and are driven to great reflection, great sorrow, and
great compassion. Perhaps those are the Buddhas and
Boddhisatvas. It is true that one should not ignore what
one feels. What difference does it make whether some master
or the other says this or that about appearance and
illusion. One should not ignore what one feels. Out of
great authenticity there comes the potential for great
understanding. That is why there appear to be so many
different paths which seem to contradict each other and yet
lead to the same goal. Human beings have the capacity to be
authentic while contradicting each other. With
Self-Awareness, the authenticity gains power, and the
contradictions lose meaning.

The Nonduality name did catch my attention... In my own
mind,whenever I think of it, I always end up with----the
idea--- that the absolute has to be "one" it cannot be
two. I presently feel that the word "god" is way way too
I have been a accepted disciple of two different "Masters"
or Teachers who were not related to each other. As it
happened, they were both American. Do the names matter? As
it happened, the first one up and died on me, some say
mahasamadhi, one proof being that the dead body does not,did
not rot in the usual way dead human bodies do. I stayed
with this group until it changed and they asked me to go

I also was a accepted student of Rama/Lenz for a year till
he asked me to leave. He told me that he had nothing more
that he could teach me. About two years later he went and
killed himself. This really left me with questioning the
years worth of teaching I received from him. I did not
relate to him as a guru or teacher, he was and is my
friend. I really saw lots and lots of mystical stuff on him
from the very first time I meditated with him. I meditated
with my eyes open on him and I saw all this neat stuff, You
know the basic Hindu gods and goddesses, the void where
everything just disappears into nothingness. Where a 3 hour
meditation on the void felt like it was only 2 minutes had
gone by. Gold light all around him. Feeling that the earth,
human life was and is not real. What am I doing here? A
feeling that I am something other than human. That I am
just visiting earth for some reason, but I have forgotten
the reason why I came to earth. Earth is not a very nice
place, but that there are many many other places which are
far, far better than earth.
I am a mystic. And I do not care one bit if guru so and so
has or is having sex. This is not important to me . I only
say this because all the anti=cult sites always make a point
of this which in america i think is a joke. I meditated with
Siddha yoga in L.A. I studied theosophy with U.L.T.
L.A.-Long Beach. I have read most of the Secret Doctrine by
H.P.B. The point of this is she/it still holds my
she/it would be classified as non-dual. Siddha Yoga is also
My understanding of Hindu thought is that beyond all their
gods and goddesses, there is a reality which is non-dual.


Gill Eardley sent: "It is possible that the next Buddha will
not take the form of an individual. The next Buddha may
take the form of a community -- a community practicing
understanding and loving kindness, a community practicing
mindful living.
This may be the most important thing we can do for the
survival of the Earth." --~Thich Nhat Hanh

Terry: This is close to my 'vision.' The making of buddhas
will then be the making of new communities. A community
starts with two people whose only interest is the welfare of
the community, and the resplendence of its buddha nature.


Larry quoted the following, said it "made sense" and then
said he needed "a better understanding of what 'inherent'

Realizing the Voidness of Mind Itself:

Once we have gained conviction in the lack of true and
inherent identity on the basis of our own "self," we turn to
the basis of other persons or individuals and then to the
massive collection of all other phenomena.
We examine voidness itself and all pure and impure
phenomena. When we investigate and search, we cannot find
any of them. None of them can be established as a true and
inherent reality. Everything is simply what can be
dependently labeled. We need to know this well. When we
see this devoid nature with respect to all phenomena, from
forms of physical phenomena up to an omniscient mind -
namely, this total lack of anything being established as a
true and inherent reality - then as it says in a sutra,
"This not finding is the supreme finding. This not seeing
is the best seeing."

I think the above is a great description of "the supreme
finding" or wahtever you want to call it. Words can be very
engaging but actually the best they can do is drop you off
at the end of the line, where "not seeing is the best
"*Everything* is *simply* what can be *labelled*"! And none
of this labelling has any *real* meaning to it. ("We need
to know this well.")
Everything that you see or think of is unreal, all you see
or think of is a label, convenient but no more 'real' than
the menu is the dinner.
Labels are not *inherent* in reality. When we don't label
things, when we don't conceptualize, when thoughts are so
much birdsong that floats by without being deciphered, this
is the "best seeing."
Seeing the emptiness of everything is the identity of not
finding and supreme finding. Every statement is no more
true than its opposite. Every 'thing' includes its entire
environment, which is everything.
Everything is "inherent" in everything.
Knowing this does not preclude the use of words, they just
don't mean anything. Inherently.

ps: Kristie quotes ACIM, and this seems to me to to be the
practical value of realizing the above, i.e. that words are
so much birdsong to be appreciated and not bothered by:

"If you pointout the errors of your brother's ego you must
be seeing through yours, because the Holy Spirit does not
perceive his errors. This must be true, since there is no
communication between the ego and the Holy Spirit. The ego
makes no sense, and the Holy Spirit does not attempt to
understand anything that arises from it. Since He does not
understand it, He does not judge it, knowing that nothing
the ego makes means anything."

You know when you are around people and you feel drained?
Or when certain people are "high maintenance" and you are
not sure how or why?

1.) Excerpt from "Gurdjieff's Wartime Paris Meetings, Part
III", Telos, Volume 6 Number 2:

(To Mme V.): By the way, I have just noticed something. A
half hour has passed; I remember that a little while ago you
had the same colour as your sister. Since half an hour you
have grown pale. Blonde, you have remained the same as
before. Your sister has paled. It is very possible that on
her right or on her left is seated a vampire who has drained
her. That can be found up to fifty-four centimeters to the
right or left.
Questioner: I don't believe that she is a Vampire. I'm
even sure she's not.
Gurdjieff: You must never be sure. That proves that you
don't know what a vampire is. Vampirism is a science. It
can be practiced unconsciously.
Medical science does not know about it. For example, you
are husband and wife. She is as thin as this, and you are
like that. Three months later, he is thin like this, she is
fat like that. Or the contrary. Or between brother and
sister. Or two friends. Six months later everything has
Unconsciously. Vampirism exists consciously and
unconsciously. Here where we are happens a certain
vampirism. It is a very explainable law. We are all around
the table. There is a chain connecting everyone. If I take
the hand of my neighbor and we all hold hands, I can drain
the doctor until she dies of it. Perhaps it is she who, not
looking like a vampire, is just that. I don't know. It
would be necessary to examine the questions dans l'ordre [in
order]. I see the fact. If it happens that I notice
something more, I make a note of it. If twice, I remark
it. If three times, it is for me a fact. Then I study
seriously and specially. The first time might be an
accident; I perceive it, but it is once, I say nothing. I
see it a second time. So I pay attention, I look for the
reason, and if it happens a third time then I study it
(To J): Your work is very difficult, our esteemed chief
secretary. I put myself in your place. I pity you for the
time being. But I am glad for you in the future. Your bank
account is growing without your having to deposit any real


KRISTI: It seems to me that there is strength in this
idea.......the source of miracles in fact....we can
unconsciously drain or be drained......or we can consciously
fill and be filled......irrespective of external
circumstances or the "behavior" of other bodies.

JERRY: As a waiter for many years, I was sensitive to
people who gave and took energy. There was one woman I
could hardly wait on. I would get very tired after waiting
on her. Sometimes I would give her table to someone else.
Thinking about her makes me tired. Even now I'm getting
sleepy. No one else was affected by her.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, Dolores (my late wife)
tells of the time she waited on a man in whose presence she
felt a glow of energy in her sexual anatomy and how it would
'whooosh' up through her head. She said she never felt so
good. (Dolores knew nothing and cared nothing about
Kundalini or stuff like that.)

He was a heavy set man sitting with two friends. Upon
setting their check upon the table, Dolores, as
unobtrusively as possible, mentioned this feeling of energy
that seemed to be emanating from him. Everyone at the table
laughed. She forgot his name, but he was introduced to her
as a healer from Ojai. Apparently it was not uncommon that
people would feel such a movement of energy around him.

GLORIA LEE: This energy, raising it, and then the group
energy effect was the entire premise of "Celestine Prophecy"
and its sequel. There was a whole psychology of behaviors
described there for how human interactions are based on
"stealing" energy. Its true also that the receiver's
sensitivity to this is a factor, whether they are
consciously aware of it hardly matters. The old hippy term
"vibes" of a place or person was about that. When I went to
see these Tibetan monks do some traditional dances, they did
some chanting and also blew on those long horns. I could
hardly stay in my seat for the K activity this set off. And
Ol Hag was right, there's people on this list that just
reading their emails will do that to me. Talk about a


Interestingly, several years ago, I had a 'girlfriend' who
was and still is, an actual vampire. She told me about
this, and reported that I was the only one she had ever
'tasted' who could instantly fill her to the point of
exploding. All I had to 'do' to insure this event, as to
simply allow myself to become 'radiant'. I have seen her
eyes roll back at those times, followed by a petite seizure
of sorts.

(This 'kind' of vampirism is referred to as 'Psyvamp' or
'PsiVamp' or 'psychic vampirism'. )

She is an extremely beautiful woman; men (and women) are
instantly attracted to her. She was insanely ambitious to
'own and control' me, to make me her servant and personal
lollypop. And she was certainly 'high maintenance' and yes,
people did actually feel drained after being in her

Fortunately, my sense of humor, and my sense of power,
carried me through that time. I emerged stronger, tested
and wiser in every regard. I do not suggest 'toying' with a

I can report, that when she was 'drinking me', the feeling
was of incredible, indescribable ecstacy. She really knew
how to do that to me, and I admit that I enjoyed it a great

I learned a great deal about the reality and mythology of
vampirism during that 8-month period that I was 'with' her.

_ Vampires do walk among us; few of them have any real
'intelligence'. Those that do, are extremely careful to
only 'feed' in crowded public places. Feeding in this way
is available to anyone who can center themselves in their
own '3rd chakra' and perform the proper inner movements.

_ Vampires seem to universally suffer from some kind of
basic inability to properly assimilate or metabolize some
certain or various nutrients found in foodstuffs. They
usually suffer from some kind of pronounced gastrointestinal
complaint, such as Gall-bladder trouble or spastic bowel.

_ Vampires are often quite gifted in various areas; often
powerfully psychic, and with an amazing ability to correctly
predict the behaviour of others. The intelligent ones can
'cloak' themselves from the view of most humans, yet, they
can see most humans better than most humans can see

_ Vampires take great stock in religion and ritual; as much
as they use entrancement to pacify their 'victims', they
themselves are also desirous of being in the trance-state.

_ One factor of the vampire that is quite telling is their
incredible 'lack of generosity'. It is not stinginess, it
is that _giving_ is quite foreign to them.


Jerry: [snip] It's a terrible thing to believe what people
tell you. Maybe that's what lies at the heart of everyone's

D: How much unnecessary tension, conflict, and distress is
the result of believing what others tell me, *and* what I
tell myself is "believable"?
These "minds" are programmable - we're all entranced and
entrenched in programming - yet perhaps also able to
relinquish our programming.
What a useful practice - simply to discard any unnecessary
reference to beliefs about anything - including the belief
that I need to discard beliefs!


DAN L: Dan you answered a question I had previously about
drinking and enlightenment. So Im going to ask you another
question If that's ok. I was thinking.. what's the effect
of the thinking mind opposed to the working mind, (using
Ramesh's concepts/terminology, Thinking/ working mind) on
strengthening or preventing senility or Alzheimer's. My
mother has it. 83 years old and it all seemed to begin when
she stopped working and reading for that matter. Anyway, So
Im just wondering if there's a correlation with awakening
and this sort of thing. Would this speed up the process or
help prevent it. Are there any sages who had Alzheimer's?
Or where senile?

I'm glad to answer, but not using Ramesh's terminology.
I'll just speak for myself here. It is known that keeping
active physically, in relationships, and mentally is helpful
regarding alertness and fitness as one ages. However,
Alzheimer's is a disease process that changes cell
structure, not simply a matter of using one's brain to keep
it "fit". Regarding fitness of the brain and "realization"
- the brain's fitness might improve when unnecessary
thinking doesn't occur, when there is general "silence and
relaxed openness", and when thinking that does occur
operates holistically, spontaneously, flexibly and in an
integrated manner. However, Alzheimer's, being a pathology
of the cells of the brain, could occur to anyone in theory.
There aren't enlightened brains and unenlightened brains.
In fact, there is only One "enlightened one", and that One
illuminates all the "brains"
as well as "flowers," "mountains," etc. So for me, this
goes beyond any concept of "brain," or "brain function,"
although I think it is useful when the brain functions
effectively, openly, and without unnecessary disturbance or

The One that manifests as "all this," manifests as all
brains, all conditions, all time and space. This One isn't
divided, so really isn't "enlightened" as if "unelightened"
were even a possibility...
So "enlightened" and "unenlightened," "sage" and "nonsage"
are human value judgments and inferences, not Totality "in
and of Itself".

Sages have been known to suffer all of the physical
constraints of anyone else, so why couldn't a sage contract
Alzheimer's disease? A "sage" is simply a conceptual
inference made about "someone's" value and realization. In
other words, the concept "sage" divides reality into "sages"
and "non-sages". Concepts are always in flux. You may
think someone is a sage today and not a sage tomorrow. You
may think someone speaks brilliantly today, and tomorrow
that person may show evidence of Alzheimer's. As far as
"speeding up the process" of Alzheimer's I think there is
little clarity about this, currently. I'm sure a healthy
diet, nonpolluted air and food, good genes, good sleep, good
exercise, supportive relationships, healthy and "positive"
outlook would all be helpful. To me, being "aware" means
"dealing with what it."
If a loved one gets Alzheimer's (or cancer, or whatever),
that becomes part of the "what is" that is dealt with.


I would like to put this question before you all.
Everything that appears in your mind, appears there because
of some form of resistance. Without resistance, we would not
become aware of it. I am not sure if this is so, therefor
let me know how you see this.

If one thing resists another, there is already the
appearance of one thing and another. The appearance of
resistance is itself evidence of resistance, the appearance
of appearance involves resistance.
But resistance of what to what? When it is seen that the
resistance is of It to Itself, then there is no resistance.
Then appearance itself is no-appearance - That which is
'resistanceless' paradoxically manifests, and manifests
using 'resistance'. We live in the midst of this Great


I liked Dan's response. Resistance is a paradox; think of it
as a marble falling through molasses. It takes something to
resist something. So perhaps the real question is; is the
appearance of things, including resistance, predicated upon
the assumption that there are 'things' which resist, and
things for those things to resist? But, maybe that is a
little too existential.

I agree that appearances rest upon resistance. One, knowing
itself as one, has nothing to resist. To that one, there
are no 'appearances', and literally nothing to resist. So
for the 'rest of us', we must be content with appearances;
it is the inverse of those appearances which is the
statement of what we are at root.


Hear their words, and if they help connect you to God...keep
them. If not, don't. Trust only God, not the personality
talking about God.


I drive a school bus in the mornings and afternoons.

This day, like many days, as I was loading the children in
the parking lot, I played a tape of the kids' favorite rock
n roll musicians. Today, it happened to be Brittany Spears,
I believe.

Just as I was beginning to become disturbed by the noise:
the noise of the music... blending with the children's
competing with the sound of a CB radio blaring in my ear, I
happened to look up and see a 7th grader totally 'in to' the
music. His face was animated, his shoulders were swaying,
his hands were tapping.....and it flashed with me.

For just a few moments I didn't hear the radio, didn't hear
the chatter, only heard the music and melted into the music
with him. It only took a moment....I only *had* a

but it was indeed "the moment". The aperture opened.
And the 'noise' was no more.

Today a 13 year old was my 'guru'.

The sooner you let go of all expectations about realization,
the sooner you may find yourself blessed by the event. As
long as you hold on to any expectations about realization,
you will prevent its occurrance in your life.

Dear ones, Beautiful ones, Sweethearts of my soul, have you
forgotten? Do you not remember why we are here? We did not
come here to be lost and to find our way home. No. We did
not come here to lead ourselves back home. No. We did not
come here to be a light in the darkness. No.

Don't you remember? We came here to be here. We came here
to suffer and strive and try and fail and succeed and laugh
and cry and be all that experience of this place that we can
be. We came to kill and die. We came to create and
destroy. We came for the suffering and the beauty.

We came here to bring forth children. We came here to
create beautiful art and music. We came here to be heroes
and cowards.

Why do you forget and want to go home? At home there is no
pain. At home no one argues with you! At home there is no
separation. At home there is no beer! ;-)

Do not worry loved ones. We will be home soon enough.
While we are here shouldn't we be here as fully as
possible? That, after all, was the agreement!

Bring forth your life in beauty. Walk in beauty. Breathe
in beauty.
For all is beautiful my loved ones.

As it was then, so it is now, and forever will it remain -


I studied it and it taught me nothing.
I learned it and soon forgot everything else:
Having forgotten, I was burdened with knowledge--- The
insupportable knowledge of nothing.
How sweet my life would be, if I were wise!
Wisdom is well known When it is no longer seen or thought
Only then is understanding bearable.

Thomas Merton, The Strange Islands


I discovered very early that obsessive ideas made my beliefs
so very hard to see and impossible to break and would make
me forever vulnerable to the worship of *ideas* about
enlightenment and the personalities that create them , if i
didn't wake up to their tricks. Without elitist beliefs i
now see/feel *actual* freedom (realisation) in everything i
experience and everyone here.


Excerpt from an interview with A. Cohen

Question:I'm very confused about this matter of ethical
conduct and its relationship to the enlightened
understanding that you speak so much about. Why is it that
so many gurus seem to be prey to the very same weaknesses as
ordinary people? I would have thought that an ego that had
died would not be able to act in the same selfish way as
people who did not claim to be enlightened.

Andrew Cohen: Maybe in the cases that you are speaking
about, the ego didn't die. Maybe in these cases, there is a
fully intact ego coexisting with a profound realization.
Most people don't realize that ego and profound realization
can coexist. It is for that reason that so many people have
gotten into trouble.

MATTHEW: the last two sentences are the point of this little
post. I think that for most of us though, it doesn't mean
getting into trouble, just staying terribly deluded about
where we think ourselves to be at. Which i suppose is
trouble enough.

JODYR COMMENTS: What does this mean? Simply that the
characteristics of our personalities "survive" the event of
realization. Chop wood, carry water | Chop wood, carry

The gurus that go bad had seeds of karma planted in the form
of character flaws. These aren't automatically corrected by

The "we" that thinks we're "at" somewhere can never be where
it wants to be. The Self is already there, and when we are
blessed with the realization of It, we see that we were
there (as the Self) all along.

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