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Nonduality Salon (/\)

Highlights #281

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Now I feel your Heart.

I did float on a scared
bubble with many here.
Sharing feelings across
neural webs. Immediately
Knowing, whom realized.

You are correct, It is
not often said, discussed.

But we always knew each
other, after the shield
came down. Many on these

And now i sense further
change. i can no longer
play. I was realized,
before last week, this
week i am no more.

All of my sensibilities
changed. I am suited
now to watch and live.

I right these words,
not of my will.

If you would lift me up,
you must be on higher ground.

My Heart is yours, Tony.




ROGER: Touch can also be a way out of the illusion: while
making love go totally into the sensation, become the
sensation. (paraphrasing from memory Barry Long's book
'making love')

JAN: That is a matter of interpretation: escaping one
illusion by fleeing into another one :) The illusion is the
seemingly obliged detour for satisfaction... Self is
satisfaction itself.

R: The illusion is identification with thought & emotion.
When totally present in sensation, the identification with
thought & emotion is interrupted.

Touch is not an illusion, touch is in the present, touch is

J: Touch is but one of the senses and substituting 'taste'
for 'touch' in your response has to be the best excuse for
obesity yet :)

Good appetite - NOW - and be one with hamburger (LOL)

R: There's a tantric sutra something like "seeing, hearing,
touching, tasting; become the taste of the food".

Compulsive eating is an emotional disorder. When we place
all attention into the taste of the food, the identification
with compulsive emotion is broken.
If the food is unhealthy or inappropriate the taste will
inform us.

It's putting consciousness fully into the act of taste,
eating or touching as meditation. Compulsive eating is (BTW
where are my cookies?) an unconscious act.


I would like to put this question before you all.
Everything that appears in your mind, appears there because
of some form of resistance. Without resistance, we would
not become aware of it. I am not sure if this is so,
therefor let me know how you see this.

In the East people have condemned the body, condemned
matter, called matter "illusory," maya--it does not really
exist, it only appears to exist; it is made of the same
stuff as dreams are made of. They denied the world, and
that is the reason for the East remaining poor, sick, in
starvation. Half of humanity has been accepting the inner
world but denying the outer world. The other half of
humanity has been accepting the material world and denying
the inner world. Both are half, and no man who is half can
be contented. You have to be whole: rich in the body, rich
in science; rich in meditation, rich in consciousness. Only
a whole person is a holy person, according to me. I want
Zorba and Buddha to meet together. Zorba alone is hollow.
His dance has not an eternal significance, it is momentary
pleasure. Soon he will be tired of it. Unless you have
inexhaustible sources, available to you from the cosmos
itself...unless you become existential, you cannot become
whole. This is my contribution to humanity: the whole

Osho, Communism and Zen Fire, Zen Wind, Chapter 2


My relationship with Osho has deepened so much over the past
few weeks, this welling up of love for him is so large.....

I hear him as if he is 'Me' talking to 'me'.....inviting
'me'....enfolding 'me'.....opening 'me'.....dissolving 'me'.


"Only matter exists": this is the deception in the west.
Consciousness is said to be just an artifact of the material

In the east the opposite deception prevails: consciousness
alone is said to exist and the material world is an illusion
to be escaped. The east tells us "the whole point is to get
off the wheel of karma, to escape into nothingness".

These attitudes are a swing between two opposites. The
razors edge between these opposites is love & truth.

We can see this polarity at work challenging us every day.
The polarity is always there, first it swings one way, then
the other. It's all pervasive.
In every situation. Do you see it? Steiner indicates that
this polarity is the fundamental challenge. The inner
versus the outer: will it be integration or separation &

In the west our school children are regularly killing each
other, and in the east NonDuality theory responds "it's just
an illusion". How could a gulf ever be larger?



The real integration is the third position which integrates
the inner integration and the outer fragmentation.

Your thinking was three term till you got to the sentence
"integration or separation and fragmentation" where you fell
into a two term framework. (I think <s>)

If you stay in the space between the inner integration and
the outer fragmentation rather than bouncing back and forth
from one to the other than you will be walking the razor's


"For the Mayans, Zero was the Death God among their lords of
the underworld, and men adopting the persona of Zero were
ritualistically sacrificed in hopes of staving off the day
of zero, the time when time itself would stop. Only much
later was zero reinterpreted as a symbol of God's power to
create a lot out of naught."

(contributed by Eric)

Alan Watts supposes that most liberation acheived through
the traditional guru-disciple was accomplished through the
controlled art of deception by the guru.

"But the world of knowledge may, like the earth, be
round--so that an immersion in material paticulars may quite
unexpectedly lead back to the universal and transcendant.
Blake's idea that 'the fool who persists in this folly will
become wise' is the same as Spinoza's 'the more we know of
particular thing's, the more we know about God' For this is,
as we have seen was the essential technique of liberation:
to encourage the student to explore his false premises
consistently-to the end."

Mr. Watts wants to show that the logical conclusion of
becoming aware of the double-bind that social institutions
have us caught in will release us from maya. The romantics
who say 'to hell with it, lets do as we will' are just as
bound to the illusion by their subtle attempts at purposeful
spontaneity. The logical conclusion of strict Christian
doctrine is also a subtle trick, a koan, to let us see the
double-bind by its commandment that thou MUST love the lord
with thy whole being, not because we are told to but out of
our own free will.

This double-bind is disturbing. I notice now all the
instants where i am unloving, but i know theoretically that
love can't be willed. By theoretically i mean, i dont
believe I let myself fall all the way into the trap, or the
trap is forming itself on more subtler levels and avoiding
my perception.

Unless one has experientially FELT liberation, he is still
involved in a contradictory situation. If one assumes he
has an intellectual grasp of it, without the surrender from
a complete exhaustion of all personal efforts, it will
remain just an 'idea'

Oh this tiresome intellect, why do I feel I must know God's

just thought i'd share some of todays readings that touched
me. We talk best about what we most need to learn i guess.



Alan Watts supposes that most liberation acheived through
the traditional guru-disciple was accomplished through the
controlled art of deception by the guru.

DAN: That's because Alan asssumed there is one person
confronting another person in such a way that the first
person leads the second person to see something. This is a
conceptual formulation of what happens. It leaves out the
nonconceptual reality of what happens. The nonconceptual
reality is all important, although it cannot be stated in
such a way that the intellect can grasp it. The
nonconceptual is key - and it doesn't fit Alan Watt's
formulations, nor anyone else's. The nonconceptual is
conceptualizing Alan Watts, Alan Watts isn't able to
conceptualize the nonconceptual!

RICK: "But the world of knowledge may, like the earth, be
round--so that an immersion in material paticulars may quite
unexpectedly lead back to the universal and transcendant.
Blake's idea that 'the fool who persists in this folly will
become wise' is the same as Spinoza's 'the more we know of
particular thing's, the more we know about God' For this is,
as we have seen was the essential technique of liberation:
to encourage the student to explore his false premises
consistently-to the end."

DAN: Blake went beyond simply saying 'explore false
premises to the end.' He suggested that full present
awareness of apparent particulars *is* infinity - infinity
*is* the present particulars, and is the nonduality of
"particulars, awareness, and ultimate Reality". We seek to
avoid infinity moment by moment, in a sense to avoid being
"torn apart" by That which is limitless (i.e., the self of
the fixed status quo, which we've worked so hard to
construct, wants to avoid this). The status quo self may
try to keep itself going, after a "glimpse of no-thingness",
by substituting its (more familiar and comfortable, perhaps)
concepts about infinity (or about how gurus use deception to
trick others into "attaining" liberation), rather than have
the direct nonconceptual opening of our own infinity
occurring infinitely (which it is). Thus, the attempt to
claim an accurate "languaging" of infinity, or "ownership"
of techniques that allow "attainment" of infinity, bring
infinity into the sphere of status quo self, the realm of
language and skills.
Nothing wrong with this - it's natural enough. The
construction that is self tries to subdue infinity,
increasingly learns this can't be done, increasingly finds
its concepts and explanations inadequate - thus increasingly
opens right here and now (and you showed that this "event"
can be inferred from Blake's statements). The self learns
that it can't "language" infinity, it is infinity's
"speaking" that has constructed the self and all its
languages (also, body, world, universe).



I think love is not immediately available on demand to
everyone, but it may be willed, or (I prefer the term)
practiced. By noticing states of love and really feeling
them, one gets an image of them, and when one is confronted
with non-love states, one can replace them with the
remembered love state. This takes a lot of practice, so
don't get me wrong that being loving in all situations is as
easy as memorizing what love feels like, but I believe that
I am loving more often than I used to be because I desire to
so be and because I practice whenever I remember to.
Remembering to is also an art which yields to practice. Of
course, practice makes perfect, but it takes an infinite
amount of it. I don't know too much anymore about traps.
Everything is an opportunity to choose between love and
fear, and love is the better choice.


DRAWER (contributed by Pieter Schoonheim Samara -- don't you
love typing that name? It sounds like a mantra.)

The Metaphysician:
An Interview with Deepak Chopra

Amazon.com: What was your religious upbringing in India?

Deepak Chopra: I was brought up with a smattering of
Hinduism and Buddhism and a lot of Catholicism because I
went to a Catholic school that was run by Irish Christians.

Amazon.com: Irish Catholics, really? What led you into
Ayurveda medicine and the Eastern influences in your
spiritual teachings?

Chopra: I had been studying comparative religions ever since
I was a teenager. In fact, I went to medical school for
spiritual reasons, trying to figure out the nature of human
existence by looking at human bodies. I carried the
questions that we all have. Do we have a soul? What
happens after we die? Does God exist? Is there meaning or
purpose? Is it random?

After medical school I started getting involved in Ayurveda
and exploring Vedanta (a philosophical system central to
Hinduism). Suddenly all the things I'd heard from my mother
and grandmother and from various other people who used to
come to our house--swamis and gurus--came back to me. It
basically became clear to me that I did understand Vedanta
and that I could put it in a contemporary framework.

Amazon.com: In "How to Know God," you speak of the seven
stages, or the seven ways, that humans interpret God. Can
you explain these stages?

Chopra: The seven stages are found in every spiritual
tradition. Let's just take biblical examples for the
moment, since they're the most familiar. Stage one is an
image of a punishing God who behaves like Jehovah when he's
upset. He destroys Sodom and Gomorrah; he banishes Adam and
Eve from the Garden of Eden; he sends the plague; he kills
every newborn child in Egypt because they are anti-Semitic.
This God is the fight or flight stage, and that is because
the people who projected this kind of God were themselves in
the fight/flight response.

Amazon.com: And isn't this also the stage when people think
of God as a mighty protector?

Chopra: They look at God to be a protector, but they're also
afraid of God. Much like a child looking at his parent who
he doesn't understand. The parent punishes them when
they're doing things wrong, and sometimes they feel unjustly

The second stage, called the reactive stage, is a God who is
the maker of rules. He's the cosmic policeman. And we find
him in the Ten Commandments. We find him in the Book of
Leviticus. We find him in the laws of Manu in the East. We
find him in all religions. He's the reactive response.

Stage three is a God of peace. Of course we have him in
Butar and Lao Tzu, but we also have him in
Judeo-Christianity with Jesus Christ--and in many of the
psalms, such as "Be still and know that I am God." Stage
three is the restful awareness response.

Amazon.com: And stage four is the intuitive response, which
seems to be a popular interpretation of God within the New
Age movement.

Chopra: Yes, but you also find it in the Gospel of John:
seek and you shall find; ask and you shall know; knock and
it shall be opened to you. Stage four is discovering not
only that you have the still presence of the soul inside
you, but that you can ask it a question and the answer
exists. Because your soul, which is a confluence of
meanings and relationships, has an intuitive intelligence
that is relational; that is nourishing; that is wise; that
does not have a win/lose orientation; that has a computing
ability that's far beyond anything that exists in the realm
of rational thought. Once we begin to understand that, we
begin to understand ourselves. Then we project God as the
redeemer, because He or She understands us.

Then we have stage five, the creative response. The Book of
Genesis is the most beautiful expression of the creative
response. God said, Let there be light. There was light.
The Gospel of John: First there was the word and the word
was made into flesh. Not only do you have art, invention,
and discovery, but you also have whole creativity with the
divine mind in that you create and orchestrate the incidents
of your life.

Stage six is the visionary response. The whole New
Testament is the visionary response. It's the God of
miracles, 35 miracles, and everything Jesus Christ describes
and talks about is the visionary response. When I begin to
accept how accessible miracles and visions are, my identity
of myself shifts from being a skin-encapsulated ego into an
inter-being, and ultimately into an archetypal being.

The seventh response is the sacred response. That's when I
just slip over the event horizon and I'm one with the
source. And by the way, in Judeo-Christianity, God says to
Moses, I am that I am. Jesus says, Before Abraham was, I
am. So you know, you have all the seven responses right

Amazon.com: Do you feel like you dwell mostly in that last

Chopra: I have glimpses of it. [laughs]

Amazon.com: Where, then, do you tend to dwell?

Chopra: I certainly see myself in the fourth stage where I
can remain centered in the midst of chaos and confusion and
I feel the presence of my soul and spirit all the time. I'm
aware of the sacred presence in others and myself. And
sometimes I get totally drawn into the fray--and that's all
right. You have to be natural.

Amazon.com: You speak of these as stages. Do you see this
as a journey to God that begins with stage one and ends with
stage seven?

Chopra: Yes, it is a journey. Although, depending on
different situations, we react from different levels.
Somebody suddenly robs me in the middle of the night, I
might go into the fight/flight response. Each stage
transcends the previous stage but also includes it. You
transcend it, but you still use it except selectively.

Amazon.com: So how would you apply this information to
everyday life?

Chopra: This might come as a shock to people, but I now have
an interactive Web site: Howtoknowgod.com. Say you're a
mother and you open the dresser drawer of your 14-year-old
daughter and find a diaphragm there. And you don't know how
to handle the situation.

Amazon.com: Oh, you are in stage four, the intuitive
response. I happen to have a daughter that age!

Chopra: Okay, so now you can go to howtoknowgod.com; what it
does is help to quiet your mind. It will help you elicit
the intuitive, creative, restful, and visionary responses.
And then it helps you decide what is the most appropriate
response in the situation at this moment. Because it may
not be the visionary response. It may be the reactive
response, it may be the intuitive response. Any response
could be appropriate depending on the circumstance or the
situation in that moment.

Amazon.com: So there's no surefire prescription?

Chopra: You've got to find the God solution that pertains to
the situation, circumstances, and karmic relationships of
your life, whether it be relationship problems or parenting
anxieties. We're going to explore this on the Web site so
that people begin to make practical use of the understanding
of these responses.

Amazon.com: Yet it seems like our spiritual task is to
always rise above situations, calling upon our higher
selves, or in this case a higher stage, to find the best

Chopra: Yes, Einstein once said that you can never solve a
problem at the level at which it was created. You have to
go to at least one level beyond.

Featured in this e-mail:

"How to Know God: The Soul's Journey into the Mystery of
Mysteries" by Deepak Chopra

To find out more about Deepak Chopra's groundbreaking new
book, visit his Web site at http://www.howtoknowgod.com

I occasionally receive questions from the list members on
the interplay of Kundalini Shakit and psychosis or even
losing one's mind. There is much that can be said about it
and Dr. Sannella wrote a book on the topic in the 1970s. I
am not a doctor or psychologist. Based on long term
experiential knowledge, my practical understanding is that
Shakti is the massive force of the unconscious, conscious,
and the superconscious. She is both the Terror and the
Beauty that manifests from Consciousness as the Energy of
Consciousness but not seprate from it. It is She who
ascends to Sahasarara (brain center) and in final stages
descends and merges the mind into the Heart and Reveals Her
Self as Pure Consciousness.

In many people, the Shakti becomes active unexpectedly under
certain circumstances. Unless, one has been in the field
for sometime, what is happening cannot be grasped at all,
even by doctors and psychologists. Abnormal awakenings when
not correctly understood can indeed be perceived as mental
illnesses of various types. However, people who are able to
somehow come out of these have the potential to develop into
the most beautifully creative flowers of this garden we call
the universe.

The following link will bring you to the page that has a
link to an old paper I wrote on Kundalini Shakti and it also
has several poems on the Goddess as well. Thanks and



Is anything really "off-topic" here? Why does "nonduality"
have to be protected in a safe place, so as not to be
confused with computer problems? Or sex problems? Or other
personal problems? Nonduality is in how we deal with these
problems, not in avoidance.

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