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Nonduality Salon (/\)

Highlights #278

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Offered by JOHN:

The man in whom Tao
Acts without impediment
Does not bother with his own interests
And does not despise
Others who do.
He does not struggle to make money
And he does not make a virtue of
He goes his way
Without relying on others
And does not pride himself
On walking alone.
While he does not follow the crowd
He won't complain of those who do.
Rank and reward
Make no appeal to him;
Disgrace and shame
Do not deter him.
He is not always looking
For right and wrong
Always deciding "Yes" or "No."

Thomas Merton, The Way of Chuang Tzu

to which DAN responds:

Another beauty, John.

Just a man with no title,
walking down the road.

Following no one,
thus critical of none.

No doubt of his way,
not bothering about others' ways.

With no thought of high and low,
he didn't seek the wise nor avoid the ignorant.

He seemed to know not much,
so others took little notice.

He was so unobtrusive,
sometimes it was as if he were invisible.


Here is a taste of the thread titled "The Search/Addiction".
To read the full discussion, go to

Dave "Manchine" responding to Greg and Roger:

Greg: Yes, this is the pre-quantum physics view of scientific realism.
According to it, the world really exists, and really causes our ideas of it.
short, perhaps inaccurately so, this view says that mind activity is the
result of brain activity, which is the result of biological and physical
processes. This view itself is being abandoned by scientists these days,
partly because of results of quantum mechanics. Scientists are seeing
that the process of observation itself actually affects the observed

Quantum physics refers to the fact that measuring methods use probes
albeit energy probes like light pulses or electromagnetic fields, which tend
to effect the reaction of the observed phenomena therefore leading to
uncertainty in the result.

With the direct measurement procedure leading to uncertainty one can fall
back onto direct observation of un-probed phenomena, but that to has its
uncertainty. Also being unprobed there are many phenomena which are cloaked
in their natural states.

So "our quest" is more a quest of the second kind. Observation and deduction
of naturally occuring phenomena. Untouched but with some core factors
cloaked for lack of methods to probe further.

Another thing that quantum physics is trying to do is remove "time" from the
equations. This is being done to come closer to a Unified Theory, a general
theory that explains everything, sort of like E=mc2 but more accurate.

Roger: I'm interested in experiential reality: does one percieve that
one's essence is limited to the body or coincident with the body? Who cares
scientific opinion: what is our perception? Most people will have
to answer yes to this, even if they believe otherwise. The reality is that
everyone lives the illusion of being confined in a body.

But, is this identification with the body the truth? If it's our
perception we'd be foolish to deny it, but is it the final truth? We can
discover the
reality perceptually. Talking about it conceptually is not very interesting,
I expect, compared to the perceptual reality.

The problem we have is like you said, our sensors are limited. And so we
have to extrapolate. All of the scientists do that, and it has been proven,
at least in the physical realm to be absolutely valid.

That's what we do in trying to get further in to what's "really" going on.
In doing so we get to places many of us, as was the case with freeheart and
with myself where our logic shows us that there are incongruencies.
Freeheart came to an incongruency with his perception of God, I with an
incongruency in the reality of infinity. What happens is a unified theory
enters that explains everything.

Christiana offered a review of a new book related to the topic Dave mentioned
as well as to the nondual awareness that 'life is just a dream' through space
The End of Time: The Next Revolution in Physics by Julian B. Barbour see review

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I was looking thru my books trying to find something on "emptiness" in
the sense of meaning "not inherently existing" and I found this. To my
surprise it actually made sense. What a relief!

This is the opening paragraph to Session 10 of the Dalai Lama's
commentary to the auto-commentary of the First Panchen Lama's "A Root
Text For The Precious Gelug/Kagyu Tradition Of Mahamudra: The Main Road
Of The Triumphant Ones" from the book "The Gelug/Kagyu Tradition Of


Once we have gained conviction in the lack of true and inherent identity
on the basis of our own "self," we turn to the basis of other persons or
individuals and then to the massive collection of all other phenomena.
We examine voidness itself and all pure and impure phenomena. When we
investigate and search, we cannot find any of them. None of them can be
established as a true and inherent reality. Everything is simply what
can be dependently labeled. We need to know this well. When we see this
devoid nature with respect to all phenomena, from forms of physical
phenomena up to an omniscient mind - namely, this total lack of anything
being established as a true and inherent reality - then as it says in a
sutra, "This not finding is the supreme finding. This not seeing is the
best seeing."
L: This chapter is not only a clear exposition of emptiness itself but
also of the emptiness of mind/awareness/consciousness, the nonduality
thing. It acknowledges "mind's uncontrived or primordial nature" which
"cannot be extinguished like the dousing of a flame, but is an awareness
and clarity that has continuity with no beginning or end." Then it goes
on to show that "Mind is something that is labeled by relying on its
numerous factors and parts. But when our mind gives rise to an
appearance of mind, it appears as if it were something existing through
its own power, by virtue of itself, not dependent on anything other than
itself, not needing to rely on any circumstances or conditions in order
to establish its existence. The apprehension of it as existing in the
manner in which mind fabricates an appearance of it is the apprehension
of true and inherent existence focused on mind. The implied object of
this apprehension of true and inherent existence - a mind that is
actually established as existing as some true and solid reality - is
what must be refuted and nullified." In other words, not only is samsara
not inherently existing, but nirvana also is not inherently existing.
This makes sense to me, but I need a better understanding of what
"inherent" means. Any clues, pointers, directions or links?

More from Larry:

Revisiting the debate over who is enlightened and who can recognize an
enlightened one, it occured to me that if we can only know our own
"level" or below, then as far as I am concerned everyone is enlightened
because I don't _know_ anyone. So please teach me oh e-muni. I have a
thirst for knowledge. Don't hide or pretend. Sing your song. Fill me
with your sound.

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From: Michael

Before enlightenment comes awareness.
To become aware seek your awakening.
Once awakened you will stop seeking.

You may continue your education - enlightenment.

Dave responded:
Not in my humble experience.

Michael continues

So what the heck is awakening? What does it mean to be awake? Who is
it that is/becomes awake? The answer is very simple and most difficult
to accept or understand. Why this is so has become the subject of
many volumes of conjecture and scripture! But who cares about that?

In December of 1999 I was overwhelmed with the need to KNOW something
about buddha. I spent a week of intense study on buddha and buddhism.
Most of the so-called scripture seemed empty to me. It not only made
little sense, it also seemed wrong, incorrect and misleading. Only
the words of Gautama seemed to hold any meaning.

As I studied and thought and thought and studied I began to
experience a twofold energy. This was the energy of expanding and
contracting at the same time! :-) These words of buddha were the
focal point for me. "There is nothing to realize. There is no
enlightenment! There is nothing to do. Marvelous marvelous!" There
are two responses of buddha to the question of his identity that also
had a profound impact on me. They were "I am That" and "I am
Nothing". What a Contradiction! It is like Meher Baba's - I am
Everything and I am Nothing. I was also aware of the words of jesus -
"rejoice, the kingdom of heaven is within!"

So there I was contracting into the question of who am i and
expanding into the answer of I AM! What a surprise it was. What a
revealation (sp) too! That I Michael Alois Read am a buddha! That the
conciousness looking out of these eyes is the same that looked out of
jesus's eyes. buddha's eyes, hitler's (yes even bad people are one)
eyes - all six billion plus humans share the one and the same

At the moment I awakened the funniest thing occurred. I was pissed
off! I just had to LOL! It was too too simple! To be alive is to be
god in the flesh. To be alive is to be buddha. To be alive is
marvelous marvelous! I can see the I AM in all of us. What a blessing.

So, now I continue my education - my enlightenment.

As far I can tell, there are no levels. To speak of levels is to
speak of ignorance. It is very difficult to recognize an enlightened
one. It is very easy to recognize an elightened one. Don't spend too
much time worrying about it. You are already there. :-)

Do that which is beneficial and compasssionate.

One last thing: I found this out on the net after doing a search on

Question: What is buddha? Answer: this mind is buddha.
Commentary: Those who understand this shold be careful least they
commit the sin of formality. Those who understand this will cover
thier ears and run away after hearing 'this mind is buddha'! Those
who understand this will wash out their mouths for three days after
saying the word buddha!

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I may be just connecting things that don't connect but
I was thinking about the core wound and how it might
mold our thoughts. No matter what was coming in or
going out would be molded by these forms. In the
Gurdjieff work it is called chief feature. The central
axis around which our personality rotates. Like is sieve
with holes structured a certain way.


Yes, the ongoing impact of core wound/chief feature.
I've also heard it called the core belief and the personal law.
Does that exist without thought?
Is there belief without thought?

This is how I look at it. Thought is structured by words or has
it's basis in language. At least ordinary or one-centered thought.
Our beliefs we got before language and they form our thoughts.
Or are the forms through which the energy of our existence take
form in thoughts. Our beliefs are unexamined. Thoughts we introspect
all the time.



So you are saying, Marcia, that belief is thought at an
unconscious level of mind?

Unconscious as well as conscious mind functions as
sounds and words, images and body sensations.
Even as pre-verbal memory, a sense of worthlessness
is an evaluation, an interpretation, an identity. These
are thoughts, are they not?

I have discovered that the information which remains with us,
as the result of wounding (most especially when we are children) is
indeed in the forms that Xan and Marcia point out; sounds, words,
images, and body sensations. However (and this is a big however!),
this residual information of wound, is stored in a _compressed

Non-wound information is stored in uncompressed format; we have the
ability to easily access and endlessly ruminate this non-compressed
information. Most of what is shared here, is in non-compressed format.

It is useful to know something about data-compression; the easiest
examples to know, are the common data-compression formats used to
convert large files into smaller files, for transmission over
electronic networks, like the internet.

Filenames which have the suffix of [.zip, .tar] for PCs, or [.sit,
.bin, .hqx] for Mac, indicate that such files are compressed; they
have been rendered into smaller size by the rearranging of certain
bits of data. Such files can be uploaded/downloaded much faster than
their uncompressed versions. Each file must be uncompressed before it
can be used; but sometimes, such files are made simply for the reason
that they take up less disk space than their uncompressed versions.


Psyche reacts by stuffing (archiving) information which threatens identity.

The chief characteristic of these stuffed archives of wound-data, is
that *although* they are available for our access, they 'play back'
at such a tremendous speed, that they are literally incomprehensible
to the conscious mind. As they play back in us (usually experienced
as an undesired event in itself), the speed of the playback induces a
physical vertigo; this is often experienced as a 'veritable blow' to


Exposure to this instant/incomprehensible information _again_
threatens identity; shockingly instantaneous feelings of
_depersonalization_ occur, along with a cascade of emotions and the
concurrent physiological flooding of the brain with the neurohormonal
byproducts of psychological association.

During high-speed playback, compressed data-files deposit or inject
certain _subliminal_ cues; these cues prompt emotional reaction of
_desire_ and _aversion_. Although the specifics of the information of
wound are still unseen, the consequence of triggering the instant yet
incomprehensible playback of this compressed data, may be experienced
as _violence_.

MARCIA adds:

This is why being able to stay aware in my body is vital. I can feel
the neurological changes and know that feeling inside out of having
my buttons pushed and know that an old tape is being played again
and again and again. It is stored in the body, laid down in the
neurological systems.


The skilled psychotherapist can actuate the 'algorithm of
decompression', to allow the real-time playback of the information of
wound. A human system which is capable of compressing and archiving
information, is also capable of uncompressing that information.
Uncompressed, the information of wound is available for real-time


Yet, it remains unaccessible to the conscious mind. Searching the
memory for significant points of attachment may trigger high-speed
playback; the vertigo, the 'blow' to oneself, and the concurrent
feelings of aversion and desire, serve as a punishing conditioning to
keep us OUT of our own information-archives.

Although the information of wound is indeed composed of the same
comprehensible 'thought-forms' as any other datum of thought, it is
'a lot in a small space'; it is kept compressed and in pressurized
format. Consider that this entire post could be reduced to the size
of a single period (.), but also that considerable energy would have
to be continually expended to keep it compressed.


The energy required to keep information hidden from ourselves, is
subtracted form the pool of energy available for us. This effect is
noticed as fatigue and diminished immunity; the other more obvious
effect is that of being 'on-edge', irritable, and defensive.


The unconscious activity of repression (compressing unwanted data)
creates pressure which results in the spontaneous and automatic
phenomenon of _projection_. In this way, we surround ourselves with a
'virtual reality field' of our own making; it is composed of the very
factors which we least want to confront. Fear, resentment and blame
are the most common reactions to our own projections. It is very
common for a person to see themselves as perpetually suffering the
slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, while the entire time
remaining unaware that they are interacting with a reality of their
own making.


It is possible to _learn_ to allow the uncompression of repressed
information of wound; it is possible to adopt the practice of
_abiding_ the storm of effects which occur during this decompression
process. It is possible to learn to let go of the reactions of
aversion and desire which inevitably are triggered during either
high-speed or real-time playback of memory-contents; it is possible
to categorize every reaction as either aversion or desire, and thus
to become aware of _attachment_ as it exists as a primary mechanism
of the human Being.

'Attachment to outcome' is what underlies every strategy; to let go
of attachment to outcome, allows the falling away of strategizing as
a way of Being. Releasing strategy sets us up to free-fall into Self,
with no 'escape route' or 'back door' retained 'just in case'. This
_radical_ release of attachment is without penalty, yet, it is the
most difficult of all acts to perform. To perform this act, requires
practice of abiding, carried out as a 'walking meditation' 24 hours
per day, 7 days per week. It is when we finally realize that our
reality is our own, that we are able to own our reality; it is at
this point, that resentment, blame, and revenge lose their powerful
grip on our selves.


There is only SELF; there is nothing to contrast with Self.
Therefore, there is nothing for Self to be 'like'; thus, Self is
'like nothing'.


All versions of self are Self. Self has the power to forget about
Self, and to remember Self. Identity is a defacto hypostasis, a
crystalization of information, a hardness comprised of compressed
nuggets of wound-information. Reaction is to projected contents of
memory. All of what is known, is what has been known. All of what is
known, is not Self, it is a version of Self known as identity. All of
what can be known, is Self, but Self masquerades as the Unknown, and
the future is the unknown; thus, we are "all going to meet ourselves"
as Self 'in the future'. Anticipating this event, which is felt to to
be release from suffering, we are impatient and thus do not abide.
Nonabiding Beings do not abide Beings abiding...

Summary: Compressed information of wound, informs, guides and shapes
our world; the violent flashback-effect of high-speed playback of
compressed data, calls for that data to be uncompressed and
experienced in real-time. Avoidance of unwanted information is the
primary strategy which supports the continuance of identity. To
abide, is to slow the playback of compressed data, and to tolerate
the effects of our own attachments as they are activated as either
aversion or desire.


Upon the dawning of the realization that we create our own reality,
the fight comes to an end. Projections are withdrawn, and resentment
is no longer used as fuel for action. We acquire a deep understanding
of our own nature, and see that compassion is the highest power; we
appreciate that we are designed in such a way as to punish ourselves
for nonabiding, and that the key to abiding is compassion for oneself.


Life is momentum and momentum is movement. As long as we live, we
move. As long as we live, we will either be reacting to our
unwanted/projected 'contents', or we will be in understanding of our
human nature, and abiding it in all of its complexity and simplicity.
Such abiding of oneself, is compassion for oneself. Compassion can
inform the inevitable movement of life.


Well said. Thank you. It is perfectly descriptive of the boucing back and
forth I see myself go through. Being aware of the process doesn't always
make it easier while you're in it.....but I think it does insure that each
session with de-compression effectively sculps away some material.

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It is my experience that spontaneous awakenings in certain circumstances can
lead to much suffering. Over 25 years of observation has led me to believe
that gentle, nonviolent and nonforcing methods of meditation and Shakti
awakenings are suitable for most people. Although mild pranayama has its
uses, without proper care and guidance, the advanced breathing exercises
with retention can be problematic for some people and even dangerous as they
directly impact the brain and the heart.

I wrote extensively on this topic some years ago but have not emphasized
that recently. Almost three years ago there were quite a few conversations
on Kundalini and Pranayama that I engaged in on the k-list offering the
lessons of practical experience. Over the next 3 months or so, I will add
the essential content of those conversations to my existing paper on
Kundalini which has been on the web for well over two years or so. The
revised paper should be even more informative and useful for people
interested in Kundalini Yoga, Tantra, and Pranayama in the context of

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JAN on acquiring wisdom

Eric: You are a wise man: "So be sure that identification is a very tenacious

Thanks you: there is a saying that often, wisdom comes from
the piles of dogshit one meets "on the path" and by
contemplating the dogshit, it is converted for "general use".
>From this perspective, the 8 major forms (comments within
brackets) of wisdom are:

1. Convincing you dogshit isn't smelly or slippery (belief
2. Providing shovels to clean the path from dogshit (lots of
3. Advising to stilt walk through it so one's shoes keep clean
(lots of practice)
4. Advising to keep a hungry pig that eats dogshit (but the
pig will shit)
5. Providing skis to slide through the shit effortless so the
journey is sportive and fun (lots of practice too)
6. Buying you a pair of binoculars so only the goal is seen
and one won't notice the shit (do nothing)
7. Giving a recipe to dry and process the shit so it can be
sold as fuel to lighten the path (love the light of $hit)
8. Advising to become a member of ASSHOLE (Associated Shit
Sweeping Holy Ones Loving Enlightenment) (Holy Shit!)

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==Gene Poole== to JERRY on Objectified Space

JERRY wrote (in part):

of the specks dancing in a beam of sunlight,
that if each represents a universe,
the whole sunlight will represent the Supreme Being.

When attention is profoundly brought to the Source, the
whole sunlight is recognized. One may describe the
Enlightened condition as recognition of Source even as
attention moves from speck to speck.

It is achieved through equanimity, the freeing of attention
to its Source, and the persistence in the process of
recognition of Source in all movements of attention until
existence or the realm of infinite specks is fully outshined
by Source, or until it all becomes Source.

That's the game. Who doesn't want to play?

p.s. Notice I left the issue of space out of the discussion,
except at the very beginning when it was said that attention
moves from speck to speck as though there were nothing in
between. Because And, really, its only the
speck of attention. When finally settling into that one
speck, we can, via equanimity, resolve attention at its
Source, as Da Free John would say, and recognize Source
whenever we have spex.

GENE replies:

May I respectfully disagree with this statement: "... the moment
space is mentioned, it becomes a
speck. We can only talk of specks."

I take your meaning, and do not disagree that we 'can talk only of specks'.

Space is not stained by any meaning which we tend to put upon it;
stainless space remains free of our meddlings and assumptions.

Is it possible to know the 'suchness' of space?

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People are as free as atoms are :-)


And Space is Aware!


Anything less than complete unpredictablity ultimately
results in stagnation. We have a kind of molecular
consciousness that percieves only what it finds significant
even though we and our cellular structure is capable of
handling quite different sequences of events from a massive
framework of unbelievable gestalts awareness that are so
interwoven that each particle (consciousness) is dependent
on every other. Within this complete freedom of motion
'ordered' motion is possible and . The energy of one
recreates the whole, the strength of one strengthens the
whole, the weakness of one weakens the whole, the striving
of one increases the potentiality of everything that is.

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LARRY asks:

Does anyone know what the "knee" in "The Knee Of Listening" refers to?
Does it have anything to do with why the Greek goddess rubs the god's
knees before asking for a favor?

ERIC (FREEHEART) responds:

Bless you for your passion, Larry.
I am on my Knees in full respect.

I felt: Prayer,
then: Prayer onto the Self,
then: Original Sin.
She touching Him, His Refusal.

Repair of Original Condition
has required long Prayer.
Eric (Freeheart)

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From: Kristie From ACIM:

"The alertness of the ego to the errors of other egos is not the kind of
vigilance the Holy Spirit (awareness; my substitution) would have you
maintain. Egos are critical in terms of the kind of "sense" they stand for.
They understand this kind of sense, because it is sensible to them. To the
Holy Spirit it makes no sense at all.

"To the ego it is kind and right and good to point out errors and "correct"
them. This makes perfect sense to the ego, which is unaware of what errors
are and what correction is. Errors are of the ego, and correction of errors
lies in the relinquishment of the ego. When you correct a brother, you are
telling him that he is wrong. He may be making no sense at the time, and it
is certain that, if he is speaking from the ego, he will not be making
sense. But your task is still tot ell him he is right. You do not tell him
this verbally, if he is spekaing foolishly. He needs correction at another
level, because his error is at another level. He is still right, because he
is the Son of God. His ego is always wrong, no matter what it says or does.

"If you pointout the errors of your brother's ego you must be seeing through
yours, because the Holy Spirit does not perceive his errors. This must be
true, since there is no communication between the ego and the Holy Spirit.
The ego makes no sense, and the Holy Spirit does not attempt to understand
anything that arises from it. Since He does not understand it, He does not
judge it, knowing that nothing the ego makes means anything.

"When you react at all to errors, you are not listening to the Holy Spirit.
He has merely disregarded them, and if you attend to them you are not
hearing Him. If you do not hear Him, you are listening to your ego and
making as little sense as the brother whose errors you perceive. This canno
be correction. Yet it is more than merely a lack of correction for him, It
is the giving up of correction in yourself.

"When a brother behaves insanely, you can heal him only by perceiving the
sanity in him. If you perceive his errors and accept them, you are accepting
yours. If you want to give yours over to the Holy Spirit, you must do this
with his. Unless this becomes the one way in which you handle all erros, you
cannot understand how errors are undong. How is this different from telling
you that what you teach you learn? Your brother is as right as you are, and
if you think he is wrong you are codemning yourself.

"You cannot correct yourself. Is it possible, then, for you to correct
another? Yet you can see him truly, because it is possible for you to see
yourself truly. It is not up to you to change your brother, but merely to
accept him as he is. His errors do not come from the truth that is in him,
and only this truth is yours. His errors cannot change this, and can have no
effect at all on the truth in you. To perceive errors in anyone, and to
react to them as if they were real, is to make them real to you. You will
not escape paying the price for this, not because you are being punished for
it, but because you are following the wrong guide and will therefore lose
your way."

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