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from CHRISTIANA:

When I learned that my friend Janice's
Cancer had returned.. this time
in her brain.. it was a loud enough
shock to push me over an edge.. I
simply was in a free fall for the rest
of the day. A facet of the
collapse, was a real seeing of this
other point Matthew is making.. the
potential traps of solipsism of one's
spiritual practice.. even if
considered non-practice.

Suddenly I saw my personal impotence,
my enormous love for my friend,
our alignment in Christ, I felt my
brokenness and the rawness of
physicality.. and what we take for granted. These occurrences pierce the
illusion of all that I think I know about Life.. inner, outer or other.
Sometimes I think I am a consummate fool.. but that is another topic..

I entered chat after reading Matthew's post. My reading of Matthew's
words was quite different from Marcia's.. I sensed the authentic
trueness of his message. That, as Dave has indicated, the 'conscience of
physicality' is our inherent roadmap to doing what is right.

I'm not sure that either Gene or Eric fully saw the essential movement
within me, but in the end.. it did not matter that either they see me
nor that I fully see them.. what was *enormously* significant.. at Eric's
3:45 and my 1:45.. was the very essence of Matthew and Dave's message.
The words spoken, perhaps, helped open and shift mind, but way more
powerful was the *return to Living Heart* in this, and every, moment.
The service of love which these two friends offered was simply... 'being
with' me.. holding their own integrated tonal note clearly enough so
that I could entrain and access my own. This level of service is the
heart of what Matthew is speaking of.

All three of our interpretations of what occurred last night are likely
different... but the resonance and alignment within love.. was
palpable. and I am grateful.

I was not looking for sympathy, nor feeling that I needed to do anything
or be anyone for my friend, I was not even particularly feeling the
angst of existential finiteness, although all of those points may have
been in the periphery. What was most on my screen were raw questions
like...

* how does one integrate understanding with the vagaries of human
existence... with physicality... these two dimensions, for me, are still
not fully integrated

* how is knowledge and awareness brought into the foreground effectively
when the cacophony of the foreground appears so embedded in deep pockets
of emotion.

Marcia wrote: "That is my point exactly. That unless we really know
what is needed and can do it, acting kind and compassionate
may not really be kind and compassionate."

This (I'll risk saying) is equally true of those 'acting realized'...
'aware and instructive' can be just as mismatched as 'kind and
compassionate'.

It seems to me that deep and open listening (to self, other, and
the integrated tonal notes heard) opens to true compassion and
true guidance. I find precious few people who really listen... and even
fewer who ask questions to deepen the inquiry.

When the 'seat of authority' is not anchored within the speaker's
voice, but rests precariously in what arises from the moment, then
action and speech come closer to being True.

as Gene is wont to say... 'there is no *way* to be Real'

I interpret this as.. I am only real when I give up trying to make
sense of things and simply keep one foot in the messy yet open heart of
ordinariness and the other gently placed in this Infinite mystery.
Trusting that the bridging will reveal itself to me as I simply rest in
my love for God.. through my friend, Janice.

I do not know how to Be right now, so I simply have given up trying. I
abide in the aliveness of our heart.


MARK responds:

thank you for your very powerful post. My heart is quivering from
reading it, and I am grateful.

I interpret this as.. I am only real when I give up trying to make
sense of things and simply keep one foot in the messy yet open heart of
ordinariness and the other gently placed in this Infinite mystery.
Trusting that the bridging will reveal itself to me as I simply rest in
my love for God.. through my friend, Janice.

DAVE offers Christiana:

The bridging is revealing itself to you now, the current you feel will
increase, perhaps the ground will shake and foundations move, but listen to
the poem of love, hold it all together and finally as may pass the body of
Janice, so will yours, both to a peace more powerful than anything you've
ever known.

DAVE also shares:

After this Christiana, you'll be able to walk up and rip the whiskers off a
wildcat.

PHIL:

Forgive the nit-pickiness. An old habit. I am curious about the "I am
only real when" part. The soul or essence of life is (IMO) the inquiry
into what is Real, not relatively real or unreal, but just Real. In other
words, Who am I? The "real" shape of the inquiry/meditation is: not
whether I am "realized or unrealized, enlightened or not"; but simply the
wonder That I Am. The rest is just footnotes. My reality does not depend
on some state or condition. When there is "trying to make sense" I am
real; and when there is "giving up" I am real. This (IMO) is what
nonduality is about. I may be wrong about nonduality, but even then I am
real.

MARK:

You ask for forgiveness, I give thanks instead - an occasional nudge towards
clarity is what I am here for. I participate in this
list not as one who maintains an ongoing consciousness of nonduality, but as
one who has glimpsed it, and remembers that it was more
real than the ongoing experience of self as one of billions suffering from an
identity. I may be totally wrong but (I'm a dancing
fool...), my intuition suggests to me that what maintains my identity with the
self, rather than Self is the defenses I have erected
against the pain of this world. To step around, over, past them into all my
fears, anger, greed, frustrations, helplessness, etc,
etc, etc and just sit in those formidable obstacles until they lose their
ooomph is where my practice is now. Now and then I sit in
the wonder of "I am", but more often I experience fear that I may not be, or
anger that I won't be, or confusion about what any of
that means. I definitely have blocks and energy deposits in my body from
traumas, etc, and I'm releasing them by experiencing them
(finally). As anyone with a shtick, I like to talk about it and compare notes
and even proselytize a bit. I dunno, I guess I
expect that those who think they would benefit from comparing notes will do so
and the rest will ignore me 'till I go away. I'm not
really focused on what is real or unreal, so much as what seems to make me feel
more loving and more at ease in my body, psyche,
soul and spirit.

Again, thank you for your nit-picknicity and the light it shines,

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DAN:
: I wish I had a nickel for every conversation
that occurs here in this format:

"I'm only telling you about your
defensiveness for your own good."

"No you're not, you're telling me for your own good,
because what you say doesn't help, just irritates."

"Well, you wouldn't react like that if what was
said wasn't on-target"

LOL - Summarize as this: "you're being defensive" "I am not"
"See, I'm right" --
-- if you agree with me, you're defensive...
if you disagree, you're defensive. I can't lose, you
can't win :-) Only thing to do is have a good laugh
and don't try to win :-))

PHIL:

Thanks for this, Dan. You win. ;)

If it were possible to see the vagaries of relationship as a puppet show,
it might help. In other words, "someone" makes an ad hominem remark, and
gets "me" riled up. When the fact is it's all a projection, right down to
"my hurt feelings". It is only identification that makes it seem real.

Words here or other words: they are all just words, just waves of thought
separating and merging. These very words do not belong to a "me" but
appear in the All. And disappear...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hans:

I finally figured it out. Thanks to the NDS. Enlightened people are ordinary
"transparent" people. everything is just flowing through them. In through
the frontdoor, out through the backdoor, nothing stays in between, the room
is just temporarily occupied. (I am not sure about the doors though :)
Just the other day i bumped into one, he was so transparent that I did not
notice him. I said to him (or her, I don't remember) who are you ? He/She
said, who are you talking to, cant you see I am not here ? No mystics
anymore, that's for sure !

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

from RICK WATERS:

I am just a beginner and maybe not ripe enough to even attempt this
method. What the hell is Ramana talking about by seeking the source
of the I thought? This source can't be objectified so what is it I
am looking for? I get so frustrated my head aches and I sometimes
lose my temper.

Presence? Beingness? Is this the source of the I thought? or
products? When objects appear a subject appears and claims them. So
even 'I AM' arises with the ego. Without objects how can there even
by knowledge of 'I am'.

Emptiness, Silence? Is this the source of 'I Am'? Isn't staying in
the Source equal to death? Sure there is no conflict or turmoil, but
there is no life either.

It seems impossible to stay in awareness of 'I' because it isn't
there unless it's relating to an object.

All there is to do is let the ego run wild. There is no one here to
do otherwise. But its not fair!! Its like being tortured and there
is nothing to do about it.

well just blowing of some steam--sorry


JERRY responds:

Ideal letter, Rick. Thanks for sending it. How about losing
your temper or blowing off enough steam until you annihilate
the planet, the solar system, the galaxy, the universe, your
body, your mind, your soul and your spirit? Whatever rest
you come to after all that is probably something like the
source of the I thought.

DAVE adds:
Either that or it's like the Ktoon that Gene left in
http://www.onelist.com/links/NondualitySalon

A picture is worth 0 words!


and MICHAEL REED says to Rick:

That point of awareness looking out of your eyes is IT! That's all
there is. Everything else is experiential phenomena! So, enjoy it!

There is no-thing to seek!:-0

Yeow!
Laugh when you're happy
Cry when you're sad
Eat when you're hungry
Be good when you're being bad
You are life's mystery
No need to go mad!
Yeow!

The beginner's mistake is the idea that once you 'get it' the heavens
will open and god-a-mighty will step down to congratulate you on a
job well done! As least that was the way i thought it would go. ;-)
But noooooo! Every part of everything is already IT. Our ego, mind,
body is already there! Sounds kinda stoopid donnit?

Please do not worry about having an ego. Do not try to kill your ego
- it is standard human equipment. You actually need it to experience
your life. That is the part joy of being you. But - aha - he's got a
but! But, do what works. Try not to be an egomaniac. We are all just
bit actors in a play. IT isn't already scripted - we are improv
players!:-)

At the core we are ONE. We are OK. All of us.

Hey - what do you get when a microsoft engineer realizes buddha?
Give up? Nerdvana! ;-)

You might try mindful meditation. Just watch the mind do its thing.
Don't get caught up in it just watch it. It gets tired after a while.
Then you realize .... who is watching? Uh oh!

HAHAHAH and HOHOHO


and finally GENE POOLE adds:

Rick, everything you say here makes perfect sense... to me, at
least, and to Jerry too, it seems.

Concerning the 'doomed fate' of 'being tortured and nothing to do
about it'... what if... what if, none of it actually _means_
anything? What if, we are looking for answers to questions which
themselves were compounded by those who lived in the assumption that
the construction of a ladder of words, could be the way to heaven?
What if, one suddenly realized that the very ground they are standing
on, after the collapse of the semantic ladder, is none other than
heaven itself?

What if... there is no salvation to be found in meaning? What if, we
have to relegate language itself, to the status of a convenience?

Language comprises less than 5% of interpersonal communication; yet,
it is common to find a majority of people, living exclusively within
that 5%... leaving the remaining 95% totally unoccupied.

Hey, it can get a bit lonely in here!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

MARCIA shares:

One more from A.L. Staveley, Memories of Gurdjieff

"It was evening. The meal finished, Mr. Gurdjieff
began to play on the small organ those strange
haunting melodies that spoke in an unknown tongue
to something buried deep within. We sat together,
each one alone with his or her own inner experience.
At last the music stopped but we still sat. Someone
brought him a cup of coffee and he held a cigarette in
his other hand. There was silence.

All at once the thought was present in the room--
here is an old man! His head nodded, as is the way with
old people. The cup of coffee in his hand tipped, not
quite spilling, and from his other hand dangled the
cigarette about to fall on the carpet. It seemed he had
receded into weakness and old age and we were for-
saken. Everyone watched anxiously the tipping cup,
the dangling cigarette. Many hands were poised to
catch them if they really fell, perhaps pitying this old
man and wishing to help him.

I had the odd impression that in some there exist-
ed a welcome to the thought that Mr. Gurdjieff was
old, finished--and that this, like everything else, was
known to him and he received it with compassion and
irony.

If you could keep your attention from being taken
by the coffee, the cigarette, the posture of old age and
weakness, there was at that moment an awareness
resembling a field of force around Mr. Gurdjieff. Not
only would he know exactly where the cup and the
cigarette were, but our thoughts, our states, as well.

Present he appeared to waken from his "nap,"
took up the the little organ and played another song, of
what lay in other planets, other galaxies, once known
to us, but now beyond our ken."

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