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Nonduality Salon (/\)

Highlights #183

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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>LBIDD:
>Everything that is true of space is true of awareness.
> In fact, they might be the same thing. If you put extra heavy-duty,
industrial strength quotation marks around the word "cognitive", maybe you
can say space is "cognitive." This would eliminate the difference
between inside and outside and the separation between you and me and stuff
in general, but it still leaves the question of source. Where does it come
from? Mind doesn't seem quite the answer to me but???

Dan: I resonate with the way you are looking at this.
The idea of having to come from a source involves a cause
and effect analysis, wanting a first cause. Cause and
effect are a duality. If space is awareness, and nothing
is outside of space/awareness, cause and effect are not-two
in this awareness. Then, there doesn't need to be postulated
any "outside" source. If there truly is no difference for
you between inside and outside, as you described, where would
you be able to locate a "source"?
-- Peace in One --

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ELAINE:

>We cant move past our belief
in death until
>we get to the cause of our fear of death. That would be the
same thing. Our
>guilt over "I-thoughts", makes us fearful of relinquishing
it. Of course,
>fear of physical death is only a symbol of the real fear of
the
>relinquishment of "I". Get past the illusory guilt that is
holding the
>entire scam together and we see that there is no birth or
death but only Life.
>


jan:
Death has nothing to do with guilt, unless one's actions
are causing death; in that respect, consider that not-acting
can have the same effect. Guilt is an acquired feeling (by
interpretation), the product of an authoritarian, repressive,
materialistic society and is absent in several primitive
societies. The force of bodily feelings (hunger, warmth, cold
etc.) causes one to identify with these basic feelings and to
"join"; the thought of ignoring (but not suppressing) them
doesn't come to the mind. The result of these identifications
is the "I" and it serves in learning the lessons of physical
life in a relatively short time. As it is unlikely to
discriminate between these basic feelings and emotions that
will arise later, emotions will get "tagged" to the "I" as
well. During the life of the body, the "I" thrives as the
"doer, enjoyer, sufferer etc." and in the process of dying,
this virtual structure will dissolve and there is no escape
from it.. This is the root cause for fear and it survives the
grave. So contemplating the act of dying and taking the
consequences is most enlightening and can be far more
effective than whatever path of meditation; although costing
nothing, it can cut the crap in one go :)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Andrew, Jerry on Adi Da:

jerry wrote:
> > ...in a way Adi Da HAS died, because his organization
> > in the last couple of years has become an out-and-out
> > religion called Adidam. It is a declared religion which
> > publishes books for an explicitly stated missionary purpose.
> > I feel that it is that missionary spirit that resulted in a
> > change of the language. I sense that now the language is
> > contrived...

>Andrew wrote:
> It's ass-covering language, like a legal contract or an insurance
> policy. There's thin ice Adi Da skates gracefully around in the early
> edition of his writing, in the later edition they've stuck up warning
> signs and yellow tape. When I looked at the writing on the Adidam
> website I wondered why people raved so about his writing, I tried to
> read it and came away thinking "maybe there's something here, maybe not,
> too bad it's so badly written." There was no flow there. But the early
> versions of the same writing are totally different. Even in the early
> writing, though, I wonder why he thinks he has to use so many words. He
> makes what is simple seem complicated.
>
> love, andrew

Jerry:
His later stuff seems overly polished to me. Like many great
geniuses, they do their work in the course of a year or two
and the rest of their life is spent imitating themselves.
Any one of us might see that phenomenon within themselves at
some point. When one has said everything they can say and
all one needs to do is luxuriate in suchness, words may be
urged forth by a situation and they are words that are
basically intentional repetition of other words. They are
for the benefit of someone. They are no longer direct. They
are copies of the original.

Da clearly describes a stage of his work beyond which such
copying may become manifest. He published Knee of Listening
in '72 and in '74 published Garbage and the Goddess (every
copy of which he tried to remove from circulation). In the
latter he says: "In order to demonstate the Teaching, it was
useful to make lessons of all possibilities for a time. But
now I assume the Teaching has been manifested. It is
contained in written and other recorded forms, but it is
also contained in the living experience of this Community,
in each of you. And I no longer consider it necessary to
engage in various kinds of theatre in order to communicate
the Teaching."

However, the theatrics continued as the community spirally
evolved. Perhaps the spiral has a significant dowagers hump,
one that perhaps started a long time ago. Still, the factoid
is that Da is a spiritual genius, which is to say he is on a
par with Ramana, Nisargadatta, and those few.

The ones that never sanctioned a formal community probably
remained the freshest the longest, and will probably remain
fresher forever.

Fresher forever (or at least until this shower wears off),
Jerry


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Andrew and Tim H:


Andrew wrote:
> To me there's no taking hold, no focus or aim, it's
> like listening for a
> sound on the very edge of inaudibility then allowing
> it to draw me to
> its source but there is nothing there, then staying
> there and melting
> into the nothing. Sinking through even good, beauty,
> love, kindness, all
> of these are relationship, this is beneath
> relationship, no one to
> relate, no movement, no God.
>
> love, andrew


Tim:
I agree. That is my point. As far as 'when do I stop'
I recognize this as a sound as well. Perhaps a name or
sound like the guy on the movie Babe "That'll do
pig... that'll do." when the 'work' is done. (The
movie Babe is about a pig that is convinced that he
can do the job of a sheep dog then enters a contest
and beats all the dogs with a perfect score)

It is my 'weakness' that causes me to run. I was born
to run (Run Forest! Run!) and now I simply wait until
I cross the line and hear that sound that simply melts
away the veil, eases my mind and stills my soul. One
thing is certain, I will never run out of breathe!

It is a sound that can only come from the 'other' that
I am not and is so full, complete, and absolute that I
know that 'It is finished and the battle (race, game
whatever) is finally over. Even if this means that, in
the end, it was only me battling with my 'self'. Know
what I mean?

Thus, rather than be the best player in a lesser
league (which I could easily do write books and
lecture, sell-out, steal others work and rob them of
resources...etc), I prefer to be the worst player of
the greatest league.

Know nothing, 'mean' what is spoken and written, let
the influences fall where they may, and never take my
hand off my gun knowing that, even if you draw first,
I am still the fastest gun in the 'wild, wild west'.
:o) (simply meaning I can not be fooled 'but' I allow
myself to be fooled to see where the 'other' is taking
me... get it?) You will never know what it is I 'see'
and that is my secret.

It is so clear to me that, after 'much' reflection
that my life and its experiences were a 'set-up'.
Through conditioning and programming and great acting
that disovled away into poor acting. I realize that I
was set up and, rather then allowing my 'self' to
fall, I just kept on climbing.

With 'no God', there is 'no hope' of that day (sound)
ever coming. And I simply can not accept that no
matter the consequences. Soon, all will become 'clear'
as their is one last hurdle for me (death) and then,
if it is as you say, I shall drop the 'gentle peace',
compassion, belief in grace of God, and non-harm, and
declare war on this world as I swoop back to pick up
the saints who can at the 'least' say that they lived
and died for a belief in something greater than this
'hole' of 'holeies'.

You see, Jesus screwed up in my opinion when he
decided to leave John in prison to die and 'set-up'
Judas to take the fall, which is an ultimate act of
selfishness. It is the selfishness that exploited
there very love that was given to Jesus.

Jesus was not a God. Jesus was a man who was 'set-up'
and/or lead to believe he was a God. Any one can be
made a fool of in the right situation. And this world
has made a fool of me for the last time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From Tim G:

Dear List,

Where do we get the idea that our bodies end at the edge of our skin? Why
do we not see that the entire universe and everything in it is our body?
If we do see that, how can we treat others differently than we treat
ourselves? 'Others' *are* ourselves. There is no difference. When we
treat others wrongly, so we treat ourselves. There are no others, the idea
of 'other' is a false idea. We are all *one body*. And so, treating
ourselves well, all 'others' are helped, the world is transformed when we
transform ourselves. Treating 'others' well, we ourselves are helped, the
world is again transformed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Old Hag:

So many delightful young'ns on this list seem to be standing on edge of
cliff, ready for flight, excited but a little frightened by what might
be in store, ....reminded me of this little something from Gibran.

"How shall I go in peace and without sorrow? Nay, without a wound n the
spirit shall I leave this city.

Long were the days of pain I have spent within its walls, and long were
the nights of aloneness: and who can depart from his pain and his
aloneness without regret?

Too many fragments of the spirit have I scattered in these streets, and
too many are the children of my longing that walk naked among these
hills, and I cannot withdraw from them without a burden and an ache.

It is not a garment I cast off this day, but a skin that I tear with my
own hands. Nor is it a thought I leave behind me, but a heart made sweet
with hunger and with thirst.

Yet I cannot tarry longer. The sea that calls all things unto her calls
me, and I must embark. For to stay, though the hours burn in the night,
is to freeze and crystallize and be bound in a mould.

Fain would I take with me all that is here. But how shall I? A voice
cannot carry the tongue and the lips that gave it wings. Alone must it
seek the ether.

And alone and without his nest shall the eagle fly across the sun."

Happy trails, dears....through the trailless sky.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tim G:

I wonder if even an 'informal community' such as NondualitySalon and the
website, might not also have something of a binding effect, although less
than that of the formal. It seems that to remain *totally* independent of
all organization is the only way to guarantee that the 'freshness' you
describe never goes away at all. J. Krishnamurti is a prime example. He
realized how his own institution was about to trap him even before it got
off the ground! And his writings retained their freshness until the day
his body died. There was never an ounce of 'gloss' to a single word
uttered by J. Krishnamurti.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

from Kristie:

ACIM frequently considers guilt in the context of judgement, in effect
saying that guilt is merely the flip side of the coin of anger......both are
emotional states that arise from the dream......the illusion that we create
when we consider the world to be the sum of our perceptions.....Both anger
and guilt....are attenutated by judgement......surrender all judgement and
anger AND guilt will disappear.......you cannot get rid of guilt.....it
isn't real.......you can recognize the nature of the dream and be willing to
have not guilt/not judgement/not anger.....the rest will be done for you....

I don't think the issue is get rid of guilt......the issue is to recognize
that one's entire world view is formed of judgements and that these
judgements are the source of suffering, guilt, anger, judgement,
attack.......(guilt is simply attack turned inward)......these are all
symptoms of the warfare that engages the mind....ACIM says give up the
fight, give up the idea of the fight, in this way give up guilt......the
rest will be done for you.

I believe this is simply another metaphor for describing the phenomenon of
surrender or of "getting rid of all desire." Where there is guilt there is a
desire to experience guilt or a belief that guilt serves a purpose. It
serves no purpose except to create intellectual strategems that insure its
projection into anger and harm; in short to justify the existence of the
ego.....which in the ACIM is the self that is the product of illusion.....in
and of itself not real......but the creations we create in our perceptually
based interpretations of reality. What is truly real is not a function of
the material world, or the perceptual world, it is the condition of
love....a concept alien to the ego.

I think when we focus on the effects of guilt and worry about whether or not
we are experiencing it...or try to get rid of it.....we have simply deified
and sanctioned the illusion that it has power.

The ultimate peace is forgiveness......that state of mind that recognizes
truth....that we are all One....in this state there is no separation and
possibility of guilt or anger.

"To love your brother as yourself".....this is the sum of ACIM's teachings,
IMO. In fact you WILL love your brother as yourself.......What you do unto
yourself you do unto others.......

Sorry to see you go Elaine.....the languages are different......the message
is the same........ACIM reinterprets the christian metaphor and highlights
the relation between self and others and Self and others......the shift from
personalities seeing personalities, to beings seeing beings....and the
healing that is an innate part of that reciprocity........what we put
out.....we believe about ourselves....what we believe about ourselves we
project onto others. Understanding this does nothing.
Giving up the fight does everything.....

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